Dr Gloom

isn't it about time they got rid of those duff and martins shirts

Really? From what I've seen it's always Israel is a monster, Israel is the biggest threat to world peace etc and the new channels seem biased towards that view. There's always two sides to these war debates. People should feel sorry for the Jews as well given the persecution they have had to put up with for centuries/milleniums. Erm.. I think a nation armed to the teeth bombing civilian districts with no air defense doesn't bear one iota of sympathy. It's barbaric and totally unwarranted and disproportionate. If America had any balls they would stop all aid to Israel immediately. the bombing might have been an over-reaction and i agree it was heavy handed but it was a reaction to relentelss rockets being fired into israel. Shall we examine civilian death counts on either sde? i'm aware of it, and i agree that israel's reaction was too heavy handed but there had to be a reaction. what's the alternative? ignore the rockets that are fired into your territory? it's israel's right as a soverign state to protext itself from terrorist attacks. i doubt many countries across the world would ignore it. Look at the maps mate. You think those rockets being fired aren't themselves a tiny proportional response to that travesty that's been ongoing for 65 years? EDIT: Also, "terrorist attacks" isn't the description, it's legitimate resistance. legitimacy is moot - depends on which side you're on. the jewish people have lived in israel/palestine/call it what you will since biblical times. to them it has always been their home, even before the war of 1948 and declaration of independence. from the israeli standpoint, it's tempting to question whether the last 65 years could have been avoided if the arab nations had accepted the UN plan for a palestinian and jewish state side by side. but israel as we now know it IS a democratic sovereign state and because of that has the right to defend its borders from attacks. from the arab pov, they have been displaced and are now fighting for their freedom against a much more powerful force. in their eyes, israel is the terrorist and their cause is legitimate. personally, i feel sorry for the innocent people caught up in it on both sides. it seems like the conflict is going to go on and on, despite large numbers on both sides who crave a peaceful resolution. it's the fundamentalists on both sides that are to blame. the brain-washed suicide bombers on the arb side and the far right in the israeli government plus the orthodox jews who refuse to withdraw from the settlements. but though israel's retaliation was heavy-handed , they had to do something. it seems excessive to us as outsiders but if you lived as an israeli with the threat of suicide bombers and rockets being fired into your homeland you would demand that something was done. That statement is patently untrue. The lands were inhabited my a mix of hitites, Palestinians (Philistines), Some Romans, Arabs of various backgrounds as well as Jews. "Nor can Israel’s right to the land be demonstrated by reference to the Balfour Declaration (1917), for Palestine belonged to its inhabitants, not to the British Foreign Minister. Freedom from British colonial rule was certainly more of a right of the Palestinians in 1917 than of the British citizens of America in 1776. Assuming the right of peoples to self-determination, Arab Palestine was not for the British to give to the Zionists. Finally, justice does not presuppose that if A oppresses B, then B may oppress C; thus, the genocidal policies against Jews by German Nazis would not justify Jewish Zionist punishment of Palestinian Arabs. Victims of the Holocaust have claims for compensation and territory against former supporters of Nazism, not against guiltless Palestinian peasants." of course it isn't. the jews have lived in israel since the birth of christ Historically of course there is a big questionmark against the land that has been given to make the Israeli state. The Jews in any significant numbers themselves never actually lived in that area and it is biblical hocum that has engendered this myth. The true Jewish homeland would have been more accurately sited in Egypt and there are traces in Iraq. The homeland of the Jews in the area we now know as Israel is pretty much made up. Ther original Jews were semetic tribes with a wide diaspora incorporating ancient Mesapotamia, parts of what is now Egypt, Iraq and Jordan. Their faith was pretty much 'mysticism' and they had trading links to Asia minor. They were often caravan bound and had strong trading and tribal traditons. They 'arrived' in Jerusalem 14thC B.C. (inhabted at the time by the Canannites, Hittities and Philistines)and were given a beating by the Philistines. Palestine is actually a Roman corruption of the word Phillistine iirc. Gloom, If you come into this thread and start shooting your mouth off it might be wise to have some scant understanding of the topic first. shooting my mouth off? you're the one with the anti-israel agenda. if you make the effort to re-read my post you'll see that i am saying that i can see both sides of argument. i have a lot of sympathy for the innocent people in gaza that killed by the idf. the number of casualties was sickening. equally i feel sorry for my family that live in israel. some of them have lost friends to terrorist attacks. for years they have had to hget on with their life never knowing when the next terrorist suicide bomber will strike a city centre target, hitting as many innocent civilians as possible. lets be clear, suicide bombers do not attack military targets. family of mine had to leave their home in haifa when the hizbollah were shelling israeli territory a few years back. i have little sympathy for the brain washed wackos that think that by blowing themselves up they will enter the afterlife with a harim of virgins waiting for them. israel's response to the hamas rocket attacks was over the top and a lot of the global condemnation that followed was justified. but i repeat, israel HAD to respond. as any other sovereign state would. and despite the fact that you are a supporter of the arab cause you must accept that israel is a sovereign state, recognised by the un and the international community, apart from a few backward islamist states like iran, libya and syria put yourself in the shoes of an innocent non-fundamentalist in israel. if you're an innocent civilian living in israel, you're going to want your government and army to defend your country too.

Really? From what I've seen it's always Israel is a monster, Israel is the biggest threat to world peace etc and the new channels seem biased towards that view. There's always two sides to these war debates. People should feel sorry for the Jews as well given the persecution they have had to put up with for centuries/milleniums. Erm.. I think a nation armed to the teeth bombing civilian districts with no air defense doesn't bear one iota of sympathy. It's barbaric and totally unwarranted and disproportionate. If America had any balls they would stop all aid to Israel immediately. the bombing might have been an over-reaction and i agree it was heavy handed but it was a reaction to relentelss rockets being fired into israel. Shall we examine civilian death counts on either sde? i'm aware of it, and i agree that israel's reaction was too heavy handed but there had to be a reaction. what's the alternative? ignore the rockets that are fired into your territory? it's israel's right as a soverign state to protext itself from terrorist attacks. i doubt many countries across the world would ignore it. Look at the maps mate. You think those rockets being fired aren't themselves a tiny proportional response to that travesty that's been ongoing for 65 years? EDIT: Also, "terrorist attacks" isn't the description, it's legitimate resistance. legitimacy is moot - depends on which side you're on. the jewish people have lived in israel/palestine/call it what you will since biblical times. to them it has always been their home, even before the war of 1948 and declaration of independence. from the israeli standpoint, it's tempting to question whether the last 65 years could have been avoided if the arab nations had accepted the UN plan for a palestinian and jewish state side by side. but israel as we now know it IS a democratic sovereign state and because of that has the right to defend its borders from attacks. from the arab pov, they have been displaced and are now fighting for their freedom against a much more powerful force. in their eyes, israel is the terrorist and their cause is legitimate. personally, i feel sorry for the innocent people caught up in it on both sides. it seems like the conflict is going to go on and on, despite large numbers on both sides who crave a peaceful resolution. it's the fundamentalists on both sides that are to blame. the brain-washed suicide bombers on the arb side and the far right in the israeli government plus the orthodox jews who refuse to withdraw from the settlements. but though israel's retaliation was heavy-handed , they had to do something. it seems excessive to us as outsiders but if you lived as an israeli with the threat of suicide bombers and rockets being fired into your homeland you would demand that something was done. That statement is patently untrue. The lands were inhabited my a mix of hitites, Palestinians (Philistines), Some Romans, Arabs of various backgrounds as well as Jews. "Nor can Israel’s right to the land be demonstrated by reference to the Balfour Declaration (1917), for Palestine belonged to its inhabitants, not to the British Foreign Minister. Freedom from British colonial rule was certainly more of a right of the Palestinians in 1917 than of the British citizens of America in 1776. Assuming the right of peoples to self-determination, Arab Palestine was not for the British to give to the Zionists. Finally, justice does not presuppose that if A oppresses B, then B may oppress C; thus, the genocidal policies against Jews by German Nazis would not justify Jewish Zionist punishment of Palestinian Arabs. Victims of the Holocaust have claims for compensation and territory against former supporters of Nazism, not against guiltless Palestinian peasants." of course it isn't. the jews have lived in israel since the birth of christ

Really? From what I've seen it's always Israel is a monster, Israel is the biggest threat to world peace etc and the new channels seem biased towards that view. There's always two sides to these war debates. People should feel sorry for the Jews as well given the persecution they have had to put up with for centuries/milleniums. Erm.. I think a nation armed to the teeth bombing civilian districts with no air defense doesn't bear one iota of sympathy. It's barbaric and totally unwarranted and disproportionate. If America had any balls they would stop all aid to Israel immediately. the bombing might have been an over-reaction and i agree it was heavy handed but it was a reaction to relentelss rockets being fired into israel. Shall we examine civilian death counts on either sde? i'm aware of it, and i agree that israel's reaction was too heavy handed but there had to be a reaction. what's the alternative? ignore the rockets that are fired into your territory? it's israel's right as a soverign state to protext itself from terrorist attacks. i doubt many countries across the world would ignore it. Look at the maps mate. You think those rockets being fired aren't themselves a tiny proportional response to that travesty that's been ongoing for 65 years? EDIT: Also, "terrorist attacks" isn't the description, it's legitimate resistance. legitimacy is moot - depends on which side you're on. the jewish people have lived in israel/palestine/call it what you will since biblical times. to them it has always been their home, even before the war of 1948 and declaration of independence. from the israeli standpoint, it's tempting to question whether the last 65 years could have been avoided if the arab nations had accepted the UN plan for a palestinian and jewish state side by side. but israel as we now know it IS a democratic sovereign state and because of that has the right to defend its borders from attacks. from the arab pov, they have been displaced and are now fighting for their freedom against a much more powerful force. in their eyes, israel is the terrorist and their cause is legitimate. personally, i feel sorry for the innocent people caught up in it on both sides. it seems like the conflict is going to go on and on, despite large numbers on both sides who crave a peaceful resolution. it's the fundamentalists on both sides that are to blame. the brain-washed suicide bombers on the arb side and the far right in the israeli government plus the orthodox jews who refuse to withdraw from the settlements. but though israel's retaliation was heavy-handed , they had to do something. it seems excessive to us as outsiders but if you lived as an israeli with the threat of suicide bombers and rockets being fired into your homeland you would demand that something was done.

Really? From what I've seen it's always Israel is a monster, Israel is the biggest threat to world peace etc and the new channels seem biased towards that view. There's always two sides to these war debates. People should feel sorry for the Jews as well given the persecution they have had to put up with for centuries/milleniums. Erm.. I think a nation armed to the teeth bombing civilian districts with no air defense doesn't bear one iota of sympathy. It's barbaric and totally unwarranted and disproportionate. If America had any balls they would stop all aid to Israel immediately. the bombing might have been an over-reaction and i agree it was heavy handed but it was a reaction to relentelss rockets being fired into israel. Shall we examine civilian death counts on either sde? i'm aware of it, and i agree that israel's reaction was too heavy handed but there had to be a reaction. what's the alternative? ignore the rockets that are fired into your territory? it's israel's right as a soverign state to protext itself from terrorist attacks. i doubt many countries across the world would ignore it.

Really? From what I've seen it's always Israel is a monster, Israel is the biggest threat to world peace etc and the new channels seem biased towards that view. There's always two sides to these war debates. People should feel sorry for the Jews as well given the persecution they have had to put up with for centuries/milleniums. Erm.. I think a nation armed to the teeth bombing civilian districts with no air defense doesn't bear one iota of sympathy. It's barbaric and totally unwarranted and disproportionate. If America had any balls they would stop all aid to Israel immediately. the bombing might have been an over-reaction and i agree it was heavy handed but it was a reaction to relentelss rockets being fired into israel.

the single man - depressing as hell but nice cinematography i am legend - mindless action fun the king of kong: a fistful of quarters - really entertaining documentary about geeky donkey kong gamers

just because fat fred was better than the crap that preceded and followed him doesn't make him a good chairman. a million times better than what we have now, i agree but we were all right to criticise him at the time as he had some real shockers. i'm not convinced we wouldn't have gone down under shepherd's stewardship but we'll never know now

add range of passing to that list Covered by ability. I didn't want to go into too much detail as I like Guthrie. It was tongue-in-cheek anyway though because he could play a similar role, albeit not as well. Carrick's absolutely class though so it's not like there's any shame in being a lesser player. And I never said he could be as good as him And I never said you did. That's the trouble with the internet like, you have to explain things about three times then people still don't get it. And you're never allowed to change your mind because someone like Baggio will have bookmarked everything you ever wrote. what happned to baggio? does he post as someone else now? there's a few old names from back in the day that have vanished, not sure if for good or as changed user names

add range of passing to that list

Id run with this myself. Colo had a poor first season but Id be interested to see how he done next. I think he'd be much improved. Though the whole squad will have to step up and get used to playing decent sides again with alot less time. Plus when you say cut it, Im just looking for a side that wont be relegated, Im not expecting miracles. So we need 8 new players, 4 first teamers and 4 more for back-up? I think that's going much too far (not to mention living in cloud cuckoo land if you think Ashley will cover it). One new pacy midfielder getting Butt's wages and one new top flight quality striker getting Geremi's will do the job. A left back to cover for Enrique would be nice too like. i hope that ashley has learnt from his mistakes. i'm not expecting massive investment but this group of players failed last time. if we're to avoid another relegation battle i think he's going to need to bring in at least 5 players capable of going straight into the first team. Not quite this group. The whole club was falling apart at the seams, there was huge disruption off the pitch and no-one wanted to be at the club, if anyone else was interested in signing them. We underachieved to a massive degree getting relegated with the squad we had. I think our best bet is to a large extent sticking with the players that have got us promoted, with a tweak or two here and there. A couple of bad results early on with a squad that haven't gelled and have no heart for the club could lead to a nightmare imo. i dunno, i see your point but i wouldn't really fancy any of our current first choice forwards, centre midfielders or our right back being our first choice in their position next season. agree with what you're saying about getting the balance of new players coming in right so that it doesn't disrupt the team ethic though.

very true. these are the sort of threads that can bite you on the arse. i thought that when i posted it

Id run with this myself. Colo had a poor first season but Id be interested to see how he done next. I think he'd be much improved. Though the whole squad will have to step up and get used to playing decent sides again with alot less time. Plus when you say cut it, Im just looking for a side that wont be relegated, Im not expecting miracles. So we need 8 new players, 4 first teamers and 4 more for back-up? I think that's going much too far (not to mention living in cloud cuckoo land if you think Ashley will cover it). One new pacy midfielder getting Butt's wages and one new top flight quality striker getting Geremi's will do the job. A left back to cover for Enrique would be nice too like. i hope that ashley has learnt from his mistakes. i'm not expecting massive investment but this group of players failed last time. if we're to avoid another relegation battle i think he's going to need to bring in at least 5 players capable of going straight into the first team.

Most fans are just enjoying the season Some on here, who think they have a bit of nouse, just constantly doom monger and put Newcastle down. They were moaning pre season about us doing a Leeds and now that they havent got that to moan about they are moaning about next fucking season! I am sure come Next season they will quickly find something else to moan about if we start off ok. I'm enjoying this season but under no illusion what next season will bring. I'm still renewing like. Your optimism in Hughton and his ability to find worldclass youngsters and pay them a relative pittance is not grounded in reality imo. bingo. More idealistic nonsense on here. This time football related. Can you explain how my post is 'idealistic nonsense'? FFS. i think he's agreeing with you to be fair

i think you have a little too much faith in our current lot to perform at the highest level. we're going to need more than 3 new first-teamers to survive if you ask me.

with promotion looking more likely now, how many of the current squad do you think could cut it in the top flight as both first team regulars and squad players? assuming we do go up, a lot of investment is blatantly required to give us a fighting chance of staying up, let alone challenging for a top half finish. i would say that only harper, enrique, jonas and maybe routledge are the kind if player i'd like to see playing week in week out. the likes of nolan, lovenkrands, guthrie, carroll, collocini and the taylors were all pretty rubbish the year we were relegated but would perhaps deserve another crack at the top flight, if only as squad players, after playing their part in taking us to the top of the table this year. then there's the youngsters that are maybe worth keeping but have it all to prove at top flight - best, williamson, simpson etc if you ask me, we should get rid of barton, smith, shola, butt, xisco (if we can find a buyer) and release pancrate and fitz hall. serious investment in the squad is required when you look at that lot if we don't want to come straight back down. crying out for some centre midfielders that can run and pass, some strikers and a right back.

the only thing that lived up to expectations was the off field crap. his performances and injuries make him one of he worse signings of recent years when you look at how much he cost and his wages. can't understand why so many still seem to think he'll come good. awful signing

hopefully we can get rid of the odious twat in the summer

just saw the edit alex, fair play

all six games... I was about to say the same, he barely played a match. Not like Dan to talk shite how's it talking shite alex? smith has always been pants whenever he's played at centre mid at the top level. he's been pretty average this season at cm too if you ask me apart from a burst of a few decent games at the start of the season. He made four league starts last year and had a couple of cameos as sub. He was injured most of the season but when he did play he did ok in a few games including playing in CM against Man Utd when he had Geremi alongside him (no mean feat tbf). He played there at home against Portsmouth where we lacked creativity but he didn't do a lot wrong and they never really looked like scoring whereas Owen should have. He played away against Hull and although I didn't see the game we drew 1-1 and he wasn't at fault for the goal but if you saw it perhaps you can put me straight on what he did wrong in that match. He was shite when we lost away to Liverpool from what I remember and got caugh in possession for the first goal but Liverpool won at a canter anyway. So I don't see how you can say he was a liability in central midfield in the season we were relegated. That's not me saying he'd be any good as Premier League midfielder btw. i didn't say just the season we were relegated, i said in the top flight before we were relegated. many different managers tried to play smith at centre mid in the premier league to the the extent that it's now his converted posisiton, mainly i think because he's combative and he doesn't score enough goals as a striker. for me, he has never looked a premier league level centre midfielder for us or for man utd. and i haven't seen enough from him this season to suggest he's going to be good enough if we go up.

all six games... I was about to say the same, he barely played a match. Not like Dan to talk shite how's it talking shite alex? smith has always been pants whenever he's played at centre mid at the top level. he's been pretty average this season at cm too if you ask me apart from a burst of a few decent games at the start of the season.

guthrie has it all to prove at premier league level but yes, for now he should start in centre midfield alongside nolan. smith has looked ok this season but was a liability at centre midfield before we were relegated.

wind up. it's a two year old kicking a plastic ball about, admittedly better than a lot of our first team squad are able to

i'll admit i didn't think we'd walk the league as much as we have so far. goes to show just how big the gulf is between the top two divisions. i think that was accadacca's main point though. he wasn't saying we had a premier league class squad - more that we were still better than most of the crap in the ccc and he's been proved right. the squad will still need massive investment in the summer just to survive in the premier league let alone challenge for a top half finish. hopefully the owner will have learned the painful lesson that you have to speculate to survive in the top flight.