Howaythetoon

Until you try and do something with them. Them quid shops are great for kids because they get loads for a fiver, all the rest is pure dink though, especially the tools.

With a sweaty sock, over in seconds.

Is it me or nare these weeks flying, it seems only yesterday it was ladt friday and we are nearly into Feb. Xmas seems a long time ago now.

Best LB display I've ever seen: Bernard at the San Siro, immense that night at both ends and on that form, as good as any. In his first spell he was one of the better LB's in the league and had years ahead of him to improve. Should have caved into his demands for an extra few grand a week, he wasn't asking for parity with others, he just saw the likes of the underperforming Dyer and Jenas pick up big contracts and wanted something akin for a defender, i.e. better than what he was getting.

You're obsessed tbh.

I'd be more scared of crocs, snakes, scorpions and the criminals tbh out in Oz.

Come off it Stevie, Munich didn't herald the globalisation of the game, if anything the World Cup did. Prior to that internationals were nothing but glorified friendlies often played among home nations or varied opposition on far flung tours that were rarely reported on. Hungary did more for globalisation than Munich by thrashing England at Wembley and opening up a whole new world of football we new existed but never recognised. When international football took on competition form and competitive form, that's when the globalisation of football set in, and how could you deny TV it's place below Munich as a factor in globalisation of the sport? Madness. As far back as the 20s there were talks of European super leagues if you will, globalisation would have happened with or without Munich. As for attendances, Man Utd's record attendance came 10 years before Munich, over 80,000 so that tells you they were already a large club with a large fanbase. Our record attendance was more than 12,000 less. Before Munich they had already won 5 titles, one more than us, they were the top team in the 50s, winning three of their titles in that decade - all before Munich. They had also won 2 FA Cups, so were right up there as one of the biggest and most successful clubs in the short history of the game. Yes they didn't quite have the traditions and early honours that we did, or Arsenal and Villa for example, but they were a big club and Busby for them and that era of 3 titles was like our Edwardian era under Frank Watt - the whole foundation of our club's history. Are you trying to tell me, before Munich, they were just a shitty insignificant club? Just by appearing in the European Cup as league champions, the first English side to do so BTW which dominated sports pages the breadth of the country because at the time the FA and others viewed this competition akin to aliens coming to take over the planet, they were becoming more and more famous. New football suplements like Shoot were popping up in the 50s and as the best team of that decade, guess who dominated it? Man Utd so appeal was drawn from that too. In short they were already a popular team well covered by the new media, color was coming to print more and more, European matches were played over the radio, TV was just getting into football. All before Munich. As for this: No team really dominated until Liverpool did, there wasn't a monopoly on the game pre-Munich and after until Liverpool in the 70s. If Munich brought about a monopoly on the game for Man Utd how come it took them until Fergie to attain some real success? And how were they the country's number one club? Were there regular "who is your fave team" polls? Going by your comments and Manc Mags, weren't they hated even during their barren years? Or do you mean well supported? The above is a piss poor example of how Munich gave Man Utd some kind of leg up over those poor little clubs like Everton Stevie, nee offence. BTW Everton were and still are a big club and you saying they are a small club shows your bias, they've won titles in nearly every decade except the 50s and the 90s/2000s. They are something like 7th in the all-time honours list and have average higher attendances than us, don't they? I could be wrong with the attendances but only those with insecurity complexes use attendancs to base how big a club is or isn't. Anyway we've established the media showed extra bias towards them post Munich and that they gained some extra fans post Munich, but I honestly fail to see any meaningful benefit Man Utd have gained from Munich or how on earth Munich was the most pivotal moment in the history of our game. I think people forget just what a great team they lost and how many years, a decade, it took for them to recover, had Munich not happened, they'd have swept to more success and become an even bigger club and even more popular because that team would have most probably picked up the European Cup long before it eventually did ten years later. They lost a team, wiped out. Aye, they benefited from it like. A lot of things in this thread are pure opinion based on bias and resentment or vague guesses i.e. "I bet if you ask most poeople in the 80s who they supported they say Man Utd". If that were the case, they'd be the only club getting fans through the door, no I've never heard so much shite regarding some of the stuff, biggest thing to happen to football, gave birth to the modern day Man Utd, a club that prior to Sky were being hawked about for 12m and couldn't even compete with Spurs for Gazza's signature man. I could list 30 things more significant to the game of football and Man Utd than Munich 1: Offside law 2: Lifting of the wage cap, freedom of player movement 3: The Bosman 4: The Premiership 5: Sky 6: Technology 7: Heysel 8: Hillsborough 9: The European Cup 10: Fifa 11: UEFA 12: World Cup 13: Hooligans 14: TV 15: Money 16: The economy 17: Euro 96 19: Hosting & winning the World Cup 20: I'm running out of ideas 21: You get my drift. Munich of course played a big role in the history of Man Utd and had an impact on the game, but not to the heights potrayed in this thread, or the significance.

It'll be that defender we had on trial in the summer, the one with no name. This gives it away tbh: "We know all about him".

If Munich was as influential as you say it was.... And I don't debate with people whose views are clouded by bias and resentment. My bias might account for my stomach for the debate, but it doesnt provide any arguments. Those require reasoned logic. If anything, the person who says that media publicity etc has no effect on the fortunes/advantages of something sounds less reasoned than the line I take. I'm joshing man, although I do think your bias and resentment can't be ignored when discussing such things and does, whether you like it or not, cloud your judgement somewhat. Anyway, to end the dabate I'll agree to disagree, I'm probably downplaying it too much while you're overplaying it, the truth is probably in between. I stand by my comments however that TV, Europe and '66 all had bigger impacts on the game than Munich (Stevie) and as a result, Man Utd too. *looks for that sky remote*

Good point that. I wonder if that mentality also played a part in hooliganism, abroad anyway. Maybe not.

If Munich was as influential as you say it was.... And I don't debate with people whose views are clouded by bias and resentment.

Again, for someone so experienced and knowledgeable you have it wrong. Everyone knows football didn't exist before Sky.

That's nearly as good as "Failure is like a disease to Kevin Keegan....one with no cure." It was more than a business card, it was more like a "here ye gan shag wor lass", Benfica was like "shag wor lass and her sister." Munich was the most pivotal moment in English football history. Sorry that's bull Stevie, you're very knowledgeable about the history of football so I'm a bit taken aback by that comment. TV, the European Cup and 66 was the pivotal moments in English football history, that and the offside law which NUFC played a huge huge part in. Munich heralded the start of people supporting teams from outside of their local area. Clubs like Bury, Rochdale, York etc... could all get 18-30,000 before the war and in the 50's because the local club was the be all and end all. My grandmother came from Accrington, she's dead now, she was a huge Accrington Stanley fan, but she like the majority of people in her area all changed their allegiance when Munich happened. Speak to anyone of that generation, it was the main news every day for a month, a country was in mourning, it was the biggest thing since the war. If you notice after the boom of the late 40's and 50's, attendance wise crowds started to decrease significantly across the board, apart from clubs that were winning things, it was all a result of a chain of events started with the Munich Air Disaster. Man Utd became a club who were now the nations favourite, the first lot of Busby Babes were decimated, the sympathy that the club received was unparalelled. A generation of young fans and football supporters in general, were consumed by the romantic search of their holy grail which was rebuilding the club and eventually laying the ghosts of Munich to rest by capturing the European Cup. Munich was the catalyst for clubs gaining fan bases far beyond their local area, speak to any old twat they'll tell you the same, shortly after Liverpool's style under Shankly started to develop their fan base along with the advent of televised football and the World Cup win, but Munich was the catalyst, and is the key reason why as long as there is football as we know it Manchester United will be the biggest club, they always have been since 1958. I'm not doubting that Stevie, but how was Munich the most pivotal moment in English football history? Was gaining extra fans that significant to the game in the grand scheme of things? Football's income at that time was gate reciepts and any sponsorship they could find, they weren't selling shirts or stadium tours, there were no TV subcsription channels so Man Utd or any team were in no position to prosper from new fans. Munich certainly didn't give Man Utd any advantage over any other team as claimed in this thread, more column inches perhaps but no extra advantages. Aye people from small towns with no real football team probably chose to support Man Utd on the back of Munich but this isn't unique and has always been the case right back to the game's inception - people in general who are semi-detached from football due a weak football presence in their community will pick out the most popular team or go with a team with good players, always have done, always will do. That's why Gateshead are shit I seriously doubt, on the back of Munich, bury fans decided to intead support Man Utd over Bury for example. Now today, that is evident but that's down to TV. Some of my family were from Swindon and Carlisle, they didn't swap those teams for Man Utd. Some did, big deal. My main bone of contention with your theory anyway isn't whether Man Utd gained new fans on the back of Munich, I agree that they did and would have, I disagree 100% with your views that Munich was the pivotal moment in the history of our game however, or Manc Mag's views that Munich somehow gave Man Utd an advantage over everyone else or gave birth to the Man Utd we know today. It may have played a part in both but minimal at best. TV, Europe and the '66 World Cup changed the face of English football and indeed shaped the game today for what it is. Today the vast majority of income comes from TV, Europe is the be all and end all, while the nation still clings onto the notion that we are somehow a footballing superpower based on nothing more than the success of Bobby's boys. Ironically an Aussie owns Sky, and the World Cup and European competition is a foreign concept which the vast majority of English football said no to at the time, oh and Munich happened on foreign soil too. England, the land that gave the world football? Don't make me laugh. Anyhoo... The 66' World Cup had a massive effect on the game and converted more non fans into fans than Munich ever did, all Munich did was test loyalty, the World Cup win converted an entire nation into football fans, regardless of location or class, or age or sex, and with it ensuring an endless supply of new footballers for the game's professional clubs. The large viewing figures also forced TV which had always had a "take it or leave it" stronghold over clubs, to rethink their policies. TV couldn't now live without football. That had a knock-on effect for the entire game and lead to bidding for TV rights which today provide clubs with huge sums of money. 20m next season apparently. The European football age created megastars of world appeal, not just national. For the first time ever we could compare our top footballers to the continent's and this just made even bigger stars. Best won European footballer of the year, he was to all intents and purposes thee best player on the planet. People wanted to be him, wanted to be a footballer, he changed the face of commercial relationships with clubs and players, he paved the way for the Beckhams, the big wages, the adulation, hype and blanket media coverage, not Munich. Are you trying to tell me he would have been as big a star as he was had there been no Europe and TV? Man Utd on the back of their European Cup triumph were suddenly the best team in the world, not based on opinion or here say, but fact and everyone who watched the game worldwide new it. That created a far bigger interest in Man Utd than Munich, Munich while real was unreal if you like, Man Utd the kings of Europe were real and tangible to people because they'd seen it with their own two eyes. There are stats in history books that indicate sales of footballs after that match, daft little things, Man Utd had to hire new staff to deal with things, they weren't just a British club anymore, they were a worldwide club. TV, the impact TV has had on the game is the greatest and single most signficant thing to ever happen to the game, not Munich. Not just here in England but the world over. The facts can't be ignored. I'd say Hillsborough and Heysel had a bigger impact on English football than Munich, never mind TV, Europe and '66. Erm.......who? By the way I think football was quite a popular passtime in England prior to the summer of 66. Moore? Fuck me, I thought you knew your history...

That's nearly as good as "Failure is like a disease to Kevin Keegan....one with no cure." It was more than a business card, it was more like a "here ye gan shag wor lass", Benfica was like "shag wor lass and her sister." Munich was the most pivotal moment in English football history. Sorry that's bull Stevie, you're very knowledgeable about the history of football so I'm a bit taken aback by that comment. TV, the European Cup and 66 was the pivotal moments in English football history, that and the offside law which NUFC played a huge huge part in. Munich heralded the start of people supporting teams from outside of their local area. Clubs like Bury, Rochdale, York etc... could all get 18-30,000 before the war and in the 50's because the local club was the be all and end all. My grandmother came from Accrington, she's dead now, she was a huge Accrington Stanley fan, but she like the majority of people in her area all changed their allegiance when Munich happened. Speak to anyone of that generation, it was the main news every day for a month, a country was in mourning, it was the biggest thing since the war. If you notice after the boom of the late 40's and 50's, attendance wise crowds started to decrease significantly across the board, apart from clubs that were winning things, it was all a result of a chain of events started with the Munich Air Disaster. Man Utd became a club who were now the nations favourite, the first lot of Busby Babes were decimated, the sympathy that the club received was unparalelled. A generation of young fans and football supporters in general, were consumed by the romantic search of their holy grail which was rebuilding the club and eventually laying the ghosts of Munich to rest by capturing the European Cup. Munich was the catalyst for clubs gaining fan bases far beyond their local area, speak to any old twat they'll tell you the same, shortly after Liverpool's style under Shankly started to develop their fan base along with the advent of televised football and the World Cup win, but Munich was the catalyst, and is the key reason why as long as there is football as we know it Manchester United will be the biggest club, they always have been since 1958. Ps, HTT.......I didnt mean any offence before (genuinely), but the above argument epitomises the reason why I didnt address your points. Without a knowledge or interest of anything pre SKY then you fail to undertsand the historical context of everything. No offence taken Manc Mag, but you didn't have to be there to understand the history of the game - most of it is self evident and the game today is a very good indicator of the significant moments in the game's history. Like rings on a tree. And to say because I'm of the Sky generation that I have no knowledge of the game prior to all that is very weak. I don't have any experience, true and fair enough, but that doesn't make your own understanding that much better than my own, did you interview every fan post Munich to see whether they had swapped teams, did you read every single paper post Munich to weigh up the bias? Did you get to see the books of every club to ascertain just how much, if at all, Man Utd benefitted financially from Munich? At least my understanding isn't clouded by any resentment issues or indeed bias, can you safely say yours isn't? I know I will have a hard time convincing the die hards that Munich, in all reality didn't play this significant role in the game or the Man Utd of today, but really, the facts speak for themselves. Did Man Utd benefit finanically from Munich? No Did Man Utd get extra points for a win because of Munich? No Did Man Utd's gates increase significantly because Munich? No Did Man Utd's trophy cabinet grow because of Munich? No Did the media show bias toward's Man Utd? because of Munich Yes Did they gain extra fans because of Munich? Yes That seems to be your whole argument, that the media showed bias and they gained some extra fans. I say - and? How on earth did that turn them into the mega club they are today? How on earth did that become the pivotal moment in the history of the game? After 68, Man Utd were like NUFC post 55, big club failing to reach the heights of former glory years. Only until Fergie showed up in the late 80s did that change, significantly as Liverpool's dominance faded and Sky TV came to the fore. Coincidence?

That's nearly as good as "Failure is like a disease to Kevin Keegan....one with no cure." It was more than a business card, it was more like a "here ye gan shag wor lass", Benfica was like "shag wor lass and her sister." Munich was the most pivotal moment in English football history. Sorry that's bull Stevie, you're very knowledgeable about the history of football so I'm a bit taken aback by that comment. TV, the European Cup and 66 was the pivotal moments in English football history, that and the offside law which NUFC played a huge huge part in. Munich heralded the start of people supporting teams from outside of their local area. Clubs like Bury, Rochdale, York etc... could all get 18-30,000 before the war and in the 50's because the local club was the be all and end all. My grandmother came from Accrington, she's dead now, she was a huge Accrington Stanley fan, but she like the majority of people in her area all changed their allegiance when Munich happened. Speak to anyone of that generation, it was the main news every day for a month, a country was in mourning, it was the biggest thing since the war. If you notice after the boom of the late 40's and 50's, attendance wise crowds started to decrease significantly across the board, apart from clubs that were winning things, it was all a result of a chain of events started with the Munich Air Disaster. Man Utd became a club who were now the nations favourite, the first lot of Busby Babes were decimated, the sympathy that the club received was unparalelled. A generation of young fans and football supporters in general, were consumed by the romantic search of their holy grail which was rebuilding the club and eventually laying the ghosts of Munich to rest by capturing the European Cup. Munich was the catalyst for clubs gaining fan bases far beyond their local area, speak to any old twat they'll tell you the same, shortly after Liverpool's style under Shankly started to develop their fan base along with the advent of televised football and the World Cup win, but Munich was the catalyst, and is the key reason why as long as there is football as we know it Manchester United will be the biggest club, they always have been since 1958. I'm not doubting that Stevie, but how was Munich the most pivotal moment in English football history? Was gaining extra fans that significant to the game in the grand scheme of things? Football's income at that time was gate reciepts and any sponsorship they could find, they weren't selling shirts or stadium tours, there were no TV subcsription channels so Man Utd or any team were in no position to prosper from new fans. Munich certainly didn't give Man Utd any advantage over any other team as claimed in this thread, more column inches perhaps but no extra advantages. Aye people from small towns with no real football team probably chose to support Man Utd on the back of Munich but this isn't unique and has always been the case right back to the game's inception - people in general who are semi-detached from football due a weak football presence in their community will pick out the most popular team or go with a team with good players, always have done, always will do. That's why Gateshead are shit I seriously doubt, on the back of Munich, bury fans decided to intead support Man Utd over Bury for example. Now today, that is evident but that's down to TV. Some of my family were from Swindon and Carlisle, they didn't swap those teams for Man Utd. Some did, big deal. My main bone of contention with your theory anyway isn't whether Man Utd gained new fans on the back of Munich, I agree that they did and would have, I disagree 100% with your views that Munich was the pivotal moment in the history of our game however, or Manc Mag's views that Munich somehow gave Man Utd an advantage over everyone else or gave birth to the Man Utd we know today. It may have played a part in both but minimal at best. TV, Europe and the '66 World Cup changed the face of English football and indeed shaped the game today for what it is. Today the vast majority of income comes from TV, Europe is the be all and end all, while the nation still clings onto the notion that we are somehow a footballing superpower based on nothing more than the success of Bobby's boys. Ironically an Aussie owns Sky, and the World Cup and European competition is a foreign concept which the vast majority of English football said no to at the time, oh and Munich happened on foreign soil too. England, the land that gave the world football? Don't make me laugh. Anyhoo... The 66' World Cup had a massive effect on the game and converted more non fans into fans than Munich ever did, all Munich did was test loyalty, the World Cup win converted an entire nation into football fans, regardless of location or class, or age or sex, and with it ensuring an endless supply of new footballers for the game's professional clubs. The large viewing figures also forced TV which had always had a "take it or leave it" stronghold over clubs, to rethink their policies. TV couldn't now live without football. That had a knock-on effect for the entire game and lead to bidding for TV rights which today provide clubs with huge sums of money. 20m next season apparently. The European football age created megastars of world appeal, not just national. For the first time ever we could compare our top footballers to the continent's and this just made even bigger stars. Best won European footballer of the year, he was to all intents and purposes thee best player on the planet. People wanted to be him, wanted to be a footballer, he changed the face of commercial relationships with clubs and players, he paved the way for the Beckhams, the big wages, the adulation, hype and blanket media coverage, not Munich. Are you trying to tell me he would have been as big a star as he was had there been no Europe and TV? Man Utd on the back of their European Cup triumph were suddenly the best team in the world, not based on opinion or here say, but fact and everyone who watched the game worldwide new it. That created a far bigger interest in Man Utd than Munich, Munich while real was unreal if you like, Man Utd the kings of Europe were real and tangible to people because they'd seen it with their own two eyes. There are stats in history books that indicate sales of footballs after that match, daft little things, Man Utd had to hire new staff to deal with things, they weren't just a British club anymore, they were a worldwide club. TV, the impact TV has had on the game is the greatest and single most signficant thing to ever happen to the game, not Munich. Not just here in England but the world over. The facts can't be ignored. I'd say Hillsborough and Heysel had a bigger impact on English football than Munich, never mind TV, Europe and '66.

Anyway I'm off, have to go out, canny debate. You wouldn't get this on N.O

That's nearly as good as "Failure is like a disease to Kevin Keegan....one with no cure." Thought you'd like it I make them all up you know

That's nearly as good as "Failure is like a disease to Kevin Keegan....one with no cure." It was more than a business card, it was more like a "here ye gan shag wor lass", Benfica was like "shag wor lass and her sister." Munich was the most pivotal moment in English football history. Sorry that's bull Stevie, you're very knowledgeable about the history of football so I'm a bit taken aback by that comment. TV, the European Cup and 66 was the pivotal moments in English football history, that and the offside law which NUFC played a huge huge part in.

Until the European Cup and TV. Best et al played a bigger role in Man Utd's advent than Munich, the likes of him captured the imagination and the appeal via the lens of TV cameras not some grainy pictures from Germany of a mangled plane with snow covering the wings (I'm not making light of the Munich disaster BTW). You look through old newspapers of foreign countries and the Munich disaster didn't dominate the pages that much, now look at Man Utd's win over Benfica, that did, now you tell me what would have a bigger impact on people? Reading and hearing about a disaster in minute detail or actually watching a team live on telly, in a big match, and being thrilled by what was happening in front of your own two eyes? Whole familes sat down to watch that match, home and abroad, women and kids very rarely read the paper man in the days of Munich, not before the husband anyway. I'll try and find the title of a great book on the history of the game, it covers ecomoics and things like rise in popularity, TV spawned it all. Ironically Seymour was at the head of a TV/club revolt and we played a big part in it all, except as so often goes, we missed the boat. We didn't like the European Cup BTW, we said no to it, as did many clubs and the FA. Best thing that ever happened to Man Utd was entering it against the advice of most and then winning it.

When we came close to Man U in relative worth when were a “new” (at least in the eyes of most) and extremely exciting football brand, both in terms of domestic and international finance, people liked to watch and some even semi-support NUFC just for that, even if they really supported other teams. It was also a time of financial change with new money coming in making older sources less relevant comparatively (but that still didn’t level the playing field historically, of course). We really didn’t capitalise upon our opportunity (on the field or off) and they did, but the reasons for getting that opportunity weren’t really then same between the two clubs. No it’s not the whole reason or anything close, of course, but it IS the initial spark (or explosion in media publicity terms). Man U went from being Man Who? in global terms to being THE english team (or even European teams baring maybe RM/Barc and 1 or 2 Italian ones) that most anyone in the world would know about. You cannot buy publicity like that (or goodwill), you probably cannot win publicity like that (at least back then – and certainly not goodwill). Munich got the Man U brand out there, that younger people may not realise that is irrelevant now that the brand IS out there. I honestly think Manc Mag is making a big deal of Munich and it's significance to Man Utd's wealth and global branding, in fact I'm unsure as to the exact point he's trying to make. Is he saying Man Utd's success is down to Munich, their wealth, that they benefited over everyone else on the back of Munich? I don't know, he won't talk to me Like I stated above, it helped a great deal in making them more famous to people home and abroad I ageree, that much is obvious, but I don't think this "brand awareness" gave them any extra advantages in terms of success or wealth, if that were the case how come they were often outbid for players by Liverpool and London clubs, how come they had to wait until Fergie for any meaningful success post Busby? How come their attendances weren't significantly better off? Munich was a kickstart, but the 68 European Cup win was what got Man Utd a fanbouse outside of Manchester just like Liverpool's European exploits got them new fans and wider appeal and what really gave birth to the whole Manchester United dynasty if you like and it is no coincidence that it was captured on Live TV. For Man Utd I give you England and the '66 World Cup win. There are some great books on the history of football, football economics and and how little Edwardian clubs came to become big global brands, and TV plays the biggest role. Not disasters or media bias. If media bias played such a big role, how come Northern teams have dominated the football landscape despite massive Southern bias towards London teams? TV and epic European battles gave birth to Manchester United home and abroad, not Munich - Munich was like a business card, the win over Benfica was a televised global advert.

Which of our other injuries are suspicious like, o wise one? Carr's, Babayaro's and Owen is blatantly keeping himself fit for England friendlies in the summer.

Vicky, are you a Transformers fan? Just switched on avatars the other day and just noticed yours, I used to own that very version of Optimus Prime, the best one (oldskool version) God I loved those things.

Am I right in thinking you started watching Newcastle/following football in 1994? FANTASTIC No actually, 92-93, proper bandwagon jumper me. Seriously mate, no thats great. Pretty sure you said your first game was Villa '94. Now I know youre not in your teens so the bandwagon jumper thing were your words not mine but I wont dispute it. No offence intended but I make it a point not to debate with the SKY generation of fan. Damn my mother, for having me when she did. Oh well, *shuffles off quietly to SSN for my daily fix of football influence and opinion* Always said this place was too snobby

Am I right in thinking you started watching Newcastle/following football in 1994? FANTASTIC No actually, 92-93, proper bandwagon jumper me.

How timely. Fuck all wrong with Bernard that a bag of pasties from Greggs wouldn't fix tbh. There's a rabbit off with this one, like a number of our injured souls.