The F1 2011 thread

[Craig 6308]

Come on Vettel what you playing at! Not happy with him, needs one more win imo to win the Championship.

(For anyone complaining about me liking him, Hamilton's a wanker and Button's boring, also I watched the GP at Japan where he was at Torro Rosso and pwned in the rain, loved him since then.)

 

Fair enough! I don't dislike him like I dislike Alonso or Schumacher. He seems a good lad, but over the years I've always followed McLaren......and it's a bonus for me that they have two English drivers atm!

 

Plus as a Senna fan...Lewis is without doubt the nearest we have ever had to him.

 

Not a chance Bev. I'm afraid to say his biggest adversary is the nearest we've ever had to Senna. In a class of his own is Alonso IMHO.

 

Senna's true class showed when he was able to wring the bollocks out of a car that was absolute dogshit. The 93 McLaren was by far the best example. Should never have finished on the podium that thing, let alone achieve 5 wins.

 

The only time I've ever seen anything like it since was with Alonso in the 2008 Renault. Yes he was given a massive helping hand by 'crash-gate' but he still walked it despite having a vastly inferior car. He also won next time out in Japan IIRC. And for that matter I don't reckon the 2010 Ferrari was all that either yet he very nearly bagged the title. Lewis in a shit car is, sadly, distinctly average. Look at the first half of 2009 for proof. Lewis reminds me more of a younger version of Jean Alesi only Hamilton has generally had the better rub of the green with the cars at his disposal.

 

I can understand how he riles some people - particularly those partizan to McLaren and in particular Hamilton. But you cannot deny his talent.

 

The only trouble comparing Alonso to Senna is that the latter was respected by his peers; the former clearly is not.

 

Absolute nonsense! If anything it was the other way around - most on the grid during Senna's years (particularly 86-90) considered him to be somewhat of a maverick. Later than that as well actually - I clearly remember Senna taking Mansell off at the last corner at Adelaide at the end of the '92 season and Nigel going ballistic.

[CleeToonFan 1]

Come on Vettel what you playing at! Not happy with him, needs one more win imo to win the Championship.

(For anyone complaining about me liking him, Hamilton's a wanker and Button's boring, also I watched the GP at Japan where he was at Torro Rosso and pwned in the rain, loved him since then.)

 

Fair enough! I don't dislike him like I dislike Alonso or Schumacher. He seems a good lad, but over the years I've always followed McLaren......and it's a bonus for me that they have two English drivers atm!

 

Plus as a Senna fan...Lewis is without doubt the nearest we have ever had to him.

 

Not a chance Bev. I'm afraid to say his biggest adversary is the nearest we've ever had to Senna. In a class of his own is Alonso IMHO.

 

Senna's true class showed when he was able to wring the bollocks out of a car that was absolute dogshit. The 93 McLaren was by far the best example. Should never have finished on the podium that thing, let alone achieve 5 wins.

 

The only time I've ever seen anything like it since was with Alonso in the 2008 Renault. Yes he was given a massive helping hand by 'crash-gate' but he still walked it despite having a vastly inferior car. He also won next time out in Japan IIRC. And for that matter I don't reckon the 2010 Ferrari was all that either yet he very nearly bagged the title. Lewis in a shit car is, sadly, distinctly average. Look at the first half of 2009 for proof. Lewis reminds me more of a younger version of Jean Alesi only Hamilton has generally had the better rub of the green with the cars at his disposal.

 

I can understand how he riles some people - particularly those partizan to McLaren and in particular Hamilton. But you cannot deny his talent.

 

The only trouble comparing Alonso to Senna is that the latter was respected by his peers; the former clearly is not.

 

Absolute nonsense! If anything it was the other way around - most on the grid during Senna's years (particularly 86-90) considered him to be somewhat of a maverick. Later than that as well actually - I clearly remember Senna taking Mansell off at the last corner at Adelaide at the end of the '92 season and Nigel going ballistic.

Chea but everyone knows mavericks get the job done!

Wasn't born for Senna's years but i've seen the film and heard a lot, sounds like a brilliant driver. Not a fan of Alonso though, then again I don't think theres a driver around at the minute more talented than Vettel.

[StevenL 0]

I'm a fan of Alonso aswell. Plus his rivalry with Hamilton sparked one of my favourite ever racist moments.

 

[Craig 6308]

Come on Vettel what you playing at! Not happy with him, needs one more win imo to win the Championship.

(For anyone complaining about me liking him, Hamilton's a wanker and Button's boring, also I watched the GP at Japan where he was at Torro Rosso and pwned in the rain, loved him since then.)

 

Fair enough! I don't dislike him like I dislike Alonso or Schumacher. He seems a good lad, but over the years I've always followed McLaren......and it's a bonus for me that they have two English drivers atm!

 

Plus as a Senna fan...Lewis is without doubt the nearest we have ever had to him.

 

Not a chance Bev. I'm afraid to say his biggest adversary is the nearest we've ever had to Senna. In a class of his own is Alonso IMHO.

 

Senna's true class showed when he was able to wring the bollocks out of a car that was absolute dogshit. The 93 McLaren was by far the best example. Should never have finished on the podium that thing, let alone achieve 5 wins.

 

The only time I've ever seen anything like it since was with Alonso in the 2008 Renault. Yes he was given a massive helping hand by 'crash-gate' but he still walked it despite having a vastly inferior car. He also won next time out in Japan IIRC. And for that matter I don't reckon the 2010 Ferrari was all that either yet he very nearly bagged the title. Lewis in a shit car is, sadly, distinctly average. Look at the first half of 2009 for proof. Lewis reminds me more of a younger version of Jean Alesi only Hamilton has generally had the better rub of the green with the cars at his disposal.

 

I can understand how he riles some people - particularly those partizan to McLaren and in particular Hamilton. But you cannot deny his talent.

 

The only trouble comparing Alonso to Senna is that the latter was respected by his peers; the former clearly is not.

 

Absolute nonsense! If anything it was the other way around - most on the grid during Senna's years (particularly 86-90) considered him to be somewhat of a maverick. Later than that as well actually - I clearly remember Senna taking Mansell off at the last corner at Adelaide at the end of the '92 season and Nigel going ballistic.

Chea but everyone knows mavericks get the job done!

Wasn't born for Senna's years but i've seen the film and heard a lot, sounds like a brilliant driver. Not a fan of Alonso though, then again I don't think theres a driver around at the minute more talented than Vettel.

 

That, my friend is your undoing.

 

I have nothing but superlatives to say about Senna. I watched him for all but 2 years of his F1 career and in terms of raw passion and belief, there truly has never been anyone like him before or since. That is what sets him apart from all the rest IMO.

 

However, any of the others on here who witnessed him when he was alive should, without dis-respecting him, agree that he was far from faultless and wasn't necessarily that admired amongst his peers with the exception I'd say of the last 18 months of his life. The way that since his death, many parts of the media have almost attempted to beautify him is ridiculous to say the least.

 

At the time, I was never a 'fan' but definitely an 'admirer'. Mansell was my driver and nothing gave me greater pleasure than watching him win race after race. Only some cocky Brazilian in a yellow helmet kept getting in the way. I cheered when Senna ran out of fuel at Silverstone in '91 and I'm happy to admit that. I was ecstatic 12 months later when the same thing happened and screamed at the TV telling Mansell to 'not dare pick him up again!'. But that's not to say I wasn't full of admiration for the bloke and genuinely felt a sense of loss and grief when he hit the wall in 1994. The sport was robbed - WE the fans were robbed. He was the best of his generation and arguably the best there'd ever been but we'd never see him again. Not least that, we'd never listen to his well thought opinions on the sport we all loved.

 

Alonso is the same IMO - I admire him, i'm not particularly a fan of him but he has the potential to be as great as Senna.

 

As for talent at present, I think there's 3 current 'world class' drivers on the grid. Vettel, Hamilton and Alonso. Schumacher isn't up there any more but still isn't far off. Neither is Button, Webber & Kubica for that matter. Then you're looking at the likes of Rosberg, Massa & Di Resta.

 

Of those 3 at the front if you put them in identical machinery, I'm fairly certain Alonso would beat the other two. Hamilton matched him in 2007 in an equal car, yes but I think Alonso has learned so much more since then by going back to Renault and then on to Ferrari. Vettel to me is still a bit of a unknown. He's massively quick, yes but how much is his success down to him and how much is it down to the Red Bull? There's also some serious question marks about his ability to come through the field - he reminds a bit of what Massa was like 2006-08. If he's in front he's bullet proof and the win's as good as his. Rattle him and make him race and short-comings start to appear.

 

He's also got a massive in-team psychological advantage too.

[Craig 6308]

I'm a fan of Alonso aswell. Plus his rivalry with Hamilton sparked one of my favourite ever racist moments.

 

 

That was dreadful tbf. And if that had happened in this country there'd have been massive ramifications.

[DEADMAN 0]

have to say well done to button for winning last week

[StevenL 0]

I'm a fan of Alonso aswell. Plus his rivalry with Hamilton sparked one of my favourite ever racist moments.

 

 

That was dreadful tbf. And if that had happened in this country there'd have been massive ramifications.

 

It's fucking bad like. What the fuck is with the grey wigs aswell?

[DEADMAN 0]

wierd bunch there lol

[sammynb 2929]

As for talent at present, I think there's 3 current 'world class' drivers on the grid. Vettel, Hamilton and Alonso. Schumacher isn't up there any more but still isn't far off. Neither is Button, Webber & Kubica for that matter. Then you're looking at the likes of Rosberg, Massa & Di Resta.

 

Sorry Craig but I have to call bullshit on dismissing Webber as not world class.

Forgetting he's the same nationality as I am, the fact he came to F1 later than most (26) and didn't end up in a truly competitive ride until Red Bull built a decent car in 09 makes it easy to dismiss his talent as one of the world's best drivers.

But just like your championing of Senna if you look at some of Webber's performances way back when he was driving for Jaguar in 03/04 and the fact he actually scored points driving that heap of shite proves what a talent Webber is.

Unfortunately it all happened to late for Webber.

[sammynb 2929]

BTW there is an advanced screening of Senna here on Thursday night being introduced by AJ, should I go?

[Meenzer 14068]

Webber = Frentzen = Alesi = Berger (etc.)

 

"World class" in the sense of being able to beat the best on occasion, yes, but never good or instinctively talented enough to make the next step.

[sammynb 2929]

Webber = Frentzen = Alesi = Berger (etc.)

 

"World class" in the sense of being able to beat the best on occasion, yes, but never good or instinctively talented enough to make the next step.

 

Really?

See I think the current situation for Webber is more a Prost>Senna at McLaren but Webber just doesn't have the cunt in him that they did.

tbf that's always been Webber's problem, to much of a nice guy and that if anything is the only reason why he doesn't make "world class.".

[Toonraider 0]

That's where we are different Craig, I always cheered Senna on...whether he was up against Prost or Mansell or whoever! I agree Alonso is a cut above the rest....but he is not better than Lewis. The dfferences at this level are marginal of course but

I reckon Lewis is very like Senna...all that matters to him is winning and he'll take more risks than others to achieve this.

Edited August 2, 2011 by Toonraider

[Craig 6308]

That's where we are different Craig, I always cheered Senna on...whether he was up against Prost or Mansell or whoever! I agree Alonso is a cut above the rest....but he is not better than Lewis. The dfferences at this level are marginal of course but

I reckon Lewis is very like Senna...all that matters to him is winning and he'll take more risks than others to achieve this.

 

Nah, I'm not with you on that one Bev. I've only seen one likeness to Senna from Lewis in nearly 5 years of him racing and that was in Spain this year when he really didn't give up. Pains me to say it but Alonso is better than him on every level.

 

Sammy of the current grid JB is far and away my favourite but taking off my Button-tinted specs I have to admit that he's not as good as Hamilton, Alonso & Vettel. When I consider Webber, he's most definitely on a par with Jenson and not ahead of him.

 

Of course Mark is Australia's best prospect in 30 years but, like Alan Jones he isn't 'world class'. He put in some fantastic performances in the Jag, agreed but they weren't earth shattering. Had he brought the thing home in first place a couple of times, then I'd say you had an argument.

 

I've not dimissed he as 'one of the world's best' - he's in Formula One, driving for the most competitive team - of course he's one of the best. But that doesn't suddenly make him 'world class'.

 

Meenzer has it spot on tbf. Webber is on a level with the likes of Alesi & Berger. He's better than Heinz Baked Beans though.

 

Not many drivers who have never won the world title who you could class in the 'world class' bracket IYAM. I'd suggest Moss, van Trips, Cevert, Peterson, Gilles Villeneuve, Belloff and that would be about it.

[Toonraider 0]

Frentzen with the love of the Jordan team was brilliant! But average in the Williams!

 

Ps We will have to agree to disagree Craig!

Edited August 2, 2011 by Toonraider

[Billy Castell 0]

I do wonder if the FIA would ever introduce a rule saying all cars will be hydrogen powered. They love tinkering with the rules and I can see them saying sometime in the next 5 years that engines by the year 2025 (for example) will be running on hydrogen like that Honda that has been introduced. They seem to be big on KERS and stuff like that again in an effort to appear green, and hydrogen cars are the next logical step rather than batteries.

 

I can imagine the latter engine format leading to all sorts of chaos, as a Sauber grinds to a halt during a race as Kobiyashi unplugged the charger overnight to charge his Iphone. Or Hamilton coming into the pits for 12 hours to recharge his car.

[CleeToonFan 1]

Come on Vettel what you playing at! Not happy with him, needs one more win imo to win the Championship.

(For anyone complaining about me liking him, Hamilton's a wanker and Button's boring, also I watched the GP at Japan where he was at Torro Rosso and pwned in the rain, loved him since then.)

 

Fair enough! I don't dislike him like I dislike Alonso or Schumacher. He seems a good lad, but over the years I've always followed McLaren......and it's a bonus for me that they have two English drivers atm!

 

Plus as a Senna fan...Lewis is without doubt the nearest we have ever had to him.

 

Not a chance Bev. I'm afraid to say his biggest adversary is the nearest we've ever had to Senna. In a class of his own is Alonso IMHO.

 

Senna's true class showed when he was able to wring the bollocks out of a car that was absolute dogshit. The 93 McLaren was by far the best example. Should never have finished on the podium that thing, let alone achieve 5 wins.

 

The only time I've ever seen anything like it since was with Alonso in the 2008 Renault. Yes he was given a massive helping hand by 'crash-gate' but he still walked it despite having a vastly inferior car. He also won next time out in Japan IIRC. And for that matter I don't reckon the 2010 Ferrari was all that either yet he very nearly bagged the title. Lewis in a shit car is, sadly, distinctly average. Look at the first half of 2009 for proof. Lewis reminds me more of a younger version of Jean Alesi only Hamilton has generally had the better rub of the green with the cars at his disposal.

 

I can understand how he riles some people - particularly those partizan to McLaren and in particular Hamilton. But you cannot deny his talent.

 

The only trouble comparing Alonso to Senna is that the latter was respected by his peers; the former clearly is not.

 

Absolute nonsense! If anything it was the other way around - most on the grid during Senna's years (particularly 86-90) considered him to be somewhat of a maverick. Later than that as well actually - I clearly remember Senna taking Mansell off at the last corner at Adelaide at the end of the '92 season and Nigel going ballistic.

Chea but everyone knows mavericks get the job done!

Wasn't born for Senna's years but i've seen the film and heard a lot, sounds like a brilliant driver. Not a fan of Alonso though, then again I don't think theres a driver around at the minute more talented than Vettel.

 

That, my friend is your undoing.

 

I have nothing but superlatives to say about Senna. I watched him for all but 2 years of his F1 career and in terms of raw passion and belief, there truly has never been anyone like him before or since. That is what sets him apart from all the rest IMO.

 

However, any of the others on here who witnessed him when he was alive should, without dis-respecting him, agree that he was far from faultless and wasn't necessarily that admired amongst his peers with the exception I'd say of the last 18 months of his life. The way that since his death, many parts of the media have almost attempted to beautify him is ridiculous to say the least.

 

At the time, I was never a 'fan' but definitely an 'admirer'. Mansell was my driver and nothing gave me greater pleasure than watching him win race after race. Only some cocky Brazilian in a yellow helmet kept getting in the way. I cheered when Senna ran out of fuel at Silverstone in '91 and I'm happy to admit that. I was ecstatic 12 months later when the same thing happened and screamed at the TV telling Mansell to 'not dare pick him up again!'. But that's not to say I wasn't full of admiration for the bloke and genuinely felt a sense of loss and grief when he hit the wall in 1994. The sport was robbed - WE the fans were robbed. He was the best of his generation and arguably the best there'd ever been but we'd never see him again. Not least that, we'd never listen to his well thought opinions on the sport we all loved.

 

Alonso is the same IMO - I admire him, i'm not particularly a fan of him but he has the potential to be as great as Senna.

 

As for talent at present, I think there's 3 current 'world class' drivers on the grid. Vettel, Hamilton and Alonso. Schumacher isn't up there any more but still isn't far off. Neither is Button, Webber & Kubica for that matter. Then you're looking at the likes of Rosberg, Massa & Di Resta.

 

Of those 3 at the front if you put them in identical machinery, I'm fairly certain Alonso would beat the other two. Hamilton matched him in 2007 in an equal car, yes but I think Alonso has learned so much more since then by going back to Renault and then on to Ferrari. Vettel to me is still a bit of a unknown. He's massively quick, yes but how much is his success down to him and how much is it down to the Red Bull? There's also some serious question marks about his ability to come through the field - he reminds a bit of what Massa was like 2006-08. If he's in front he's bullet proof and the win's as good as his. Rattle him and make him race and short-comings start to appear.

 

He's also got a massive in-team psychological advantage too.

 

I dunno, he was great for Torro Rosso too (not championship contending great, but then again who would be? I think he makes the most of what Red Bull give him, sure they have the best car (this year, maybe not last, but it was undoubtably up there) but you still need him to guide it home, and he's so efficient and class that there's never any doubt this year that he'd win the Drivers Championship (if something shit happens and he loses i'm gonna get ripped for this )... Besides, he has the best time on top gears track... that totally makes him the best driver ever

[Craig 6308]

Come on Vettel what you playing at! Not happy with him, needs one more win imo to win the Championship.

(For anyone complaining about me liking him, Hamilton's a wanker and Button's boring, also I watched the GP at Japan where he was at Torro Rosso and pwned in the rain, loved him since then.)

 

Fair enough! I don't dislike him like I dislike Alonso or Schumacher. He seems a good lad, but over the years I've always followed McLaren......and it's a bonus for me that they have two English drivers atm!

 

Plus as a Senna fan...Lewis is without doubt the nearest we have ever had to him.

 

Not a chance Bev. I'm afraid to say his biggest adversary is the nearest we've ever had to Senna. In a class of his own is Alonso IMHO.

 

Senna's true class showed when he was able to wring the bollocks out of a car that was absolute dogshit. The 93 McLaren was by far the best example. Should never have finished on the podium that thing, let alone achieve 5 wins.

 

The only time I've ever seen anything like it since was with Alonso in the 2008 Renault. Yes he was given a massive helping hand by 'crash-gate' but he still walked it despite having a vastly inferior car. He also won next time out in Japan IIRC. And for that matter I don't reckon the 2010 Ferrari was all that either yet he very nearly bagged the title. Lewis in a shit car is, sadly, distinctly average. Look at the first half of 2009 for proof. Lewis reminds me more of a younger version of Jean Alesi only Hamilton has generally had the better rub of the green with the cars at his disposal.

 

I can understand how he riles some people - particularly those partizan to McLaren and in particular Hamilton. But you cannot deny his talent.

 

The only trouble comparing Alonso to Senna is that the latter was respected by his peers; the former clearly is not.

 

Absolute nonsense! If anything it was the other way around - most on the grid during Senna's years (particularly 86-90) considered him to be somewhat of a maverick. Later than that as well actually - I clearly remember Senna taking Mansell off at the last corner at Adelaide at the end of the '92 season and Nigel going ballistic.

Chea but everyone knows mavericks get the job done!

Wasn't born for Senna's years but i've seen the film and heard a lot, sounds like a brilliant driver. Not a fan of Alonso though, then again I don't think theres a driver around at the minute more talented than Vettel.

 

That, my friend is your undoing.

 

I have nothing but superlatives to say about Senna. I watched him for all but 2 years of his F1 career and in terms of raw passion and belief, there truly has never been anyone like him before or since. That is what sets him apart from all the rest IMO.

 

However, any of the others on here who witnessed him when he was alive should, without dis-respecting him, agree that he was far from faultless and wasn't necessarily that admired amongst his peers with the exception I'd say of the last 18 months of his life. The way that since his death, many parts of the media have almost attempted to beautify him is ridiculous to say the least.

 

At the time, I was never a 'fan' but definitely an 'admirer'. Mansell was my driver and nothing gave me greater pleasure than watching him win race after race. Only some cocky Brazilian in a yellow helmet kept getting in the way. I cheered when Senna ran out of fuel at Silverstone in '91 and I'm happy to admit that. I was ecstatic 12 months later when the same thing happened and screamed at the TV telling Mansell to 'not dare pick him up again!'. But that's not to say I wasn't full of admiration for the bloke and genuinely felt a sense of loss and grief when he hit the wall in 1994. The sport was robbed - WE the fans were robbed. He was the best of his generation and arguably the best there'd ever been but we'd never see him again. Not least that, we'd never listen to his well thought opinions on the sport we all loved.

 

Alonso is the same IMO - I admire him, i'm not particularly a fan of him but he has the potential to be as great as Senna.

 

As for talent at present, I think there's 3 current 'world class' drivers on the grid. Vettel, Hamilton and Alonso. Schumacher isn't up there any more but still isn't far off. Neither is Button, Webber & Kubica for that matter. Then you're looking at the likes of Rosberg, Massa & Di Resta.

 

Of those 3 at the front if you put them in identical machinery, I'm fairly certain Alonso would beat the other two. Hamilton matched him in 2007 in an equal car, yes but I think Alonso has learned so much more since then by going back to Renault and then on to Ferrari. Vettel to me is still a bit of a unknown. He's massively quick, yes but how much is his success down to him and how much is it down to the Red Bull? There's also some serious question marks about his ability to come through the field - he reminds a bit of what Massa was like 2006-08. If he's in front he's bullet proof and the win's as good as his. Rattle him and make him race and short-comings start to appear.

 

He's also got a massive in-team psychological advantage too.

 

I dunno, he was great for Torro Rosso too (not championship contending great, but then again who would be? I think he makes the most of what Red Bull give him, sure they have the best car (this year, maybe not last, but it was undoubtably up there) but you still need him to guide it home, and he's so efficient and class that there's never any doubt this year that he'd win the Drivers Championship (if something shit happens and he loses i'm gonna get ripped for this )... Besides, he has the best time on top gears track... that totally makes him the best driver ever

 

It makes him one of the fastest drivers, yes but if speed was the be-all and end-all, Jan Magnussen would be a multiple world champion in F1. One of my mates used to be the manager of the Daytona Karting Centre in Milton Keynes. Because of its proximity to the F1 'triangle' they often had all the F1 drivers over for a race. He reckons Rubens is by far the craziest driver of all - a guy who used to turn up with him best mates from Brazil and punch one of them because he'd taken Rubens's line in a corner. He reckons Jan Magnussen was by far the fastest they ever had. A bloke who struggled at Stewart.

[noaliasmike 0]

I've been feeling quite nostalgic about F1 quite recently and have been doing my best to track down some of the classics over the years to 'relive' them. Some of my favourites include the action packed Suzuka in 2005. Schumacher smashing everybody in the rain in Spain in 1996. Button winning his first race in Hungary in 2006. Spa in 2000. Coulthard snatching the victory in Brazil in 2001. So many memories...

 

Feel free to reminisce with me and list some favourites.

[Craig 6308]

Nostalgic races would have to include Silverstone 1987, Brazil 1989, Hungary 1989, Silverstone 1991, Monaco 1992, Donnington 1993 to name but a few.

[Welsh Magpie 0]

Olivier panis winning at Monaco think only three cars finished the whole thing.

[Craig 6308]

Olivier panis winning at Monaco think only three cars finished the whole thing.

 

Aye, the only time 'Schumacher' raced in a McLaren too.

 

 

 

Let's see who knows the story behind that one

[noaliasmike 0]

That was Coulthard wearing Schumacher's helmet was it not? If not then pray tell.

[Craig 6308]

That was Coulthard wearing Schumacher's helmet was it not? If not then pray tell.

 

It was indeed

 

DC had a problem with his batch of helmets and couldn't use them. Schumacher used the same model and size and agreed to loan one to Couthard. The fact that the major sponsor (Marlboro) sponsored both teams assisted greatly.

[Welsh Magpie 0]

That was Coulthard wearing Schumacher's helmet was it not? If not then pray tell.

 

It was indeed

 

DC had a problem with his batch of helmets and couldn't use them. Schumacher used the same model and size and agreed to loan one to Couthard. The fact that the major sponsor (Marlboro) sponsored both teams assisted greatly.

 

 

well i never knew that that's one to add to the pub ammo.