Europe --- In or Out

[Rayvin 4964]

I wonder what CT makes of all of this, wherever he is. Part of me thought he would have been back over the weekend for a variety of reasons, not least because it would have been an opportunity to wind everyone up about Farage.

 

Maybe he's come over to our side now and is finally just as fearful of No Deal as we are..

 

[Renton 17811]

2 minutes ago, Gemmill said:

Plenty patter from commentators saying this boosts his chances. I fail to see how tbh. Unless the assumption is simply that if you're a Tory, you're a cunt that'll lap this up as one big guffaw. 

 

Yes, that's exactly it. Just like Trump. 

[Renton 17811]

Just now, Rayvin said:

I wonder what CT makes of all of this, wherever he is. Part of me thought he would have been back over the weekend for a variety of reasons, not least because it would have been an opportunity to wind everyone up about Farage.

 

Maybe he's come over to our side now and is finally just as fearful of No Deal as we are..

 

 

I'm not sure CT is much of a Farage man but he will be creaming his boxers at the thought of Johnson and no deal. 

[PaddockLad 14610]

People are perfectly ok with being lied to by proven liars. As long as they agree with the lies they are being told theres not a problem. Were all fucked, as Rents said the other day, its time for each of us  to look after ourselves and our loved ones. The message from the gullible to immigrants, NI & Scotland is "tough fuckin shit". 

[Rayvin 4964]

Just now, Renton said:

 

I'm not sure CT is much of a Farage man but he will be creaming his boxers at the thought of Johnson and no deal. 

 

Not been online since April 3rd so my conscience dictates I have to say something along the lines of "I hope he's doing ok".

 

With that out of the way, it's possible he flounced after a bust up with your good self a couple of months back

 

Agree though, CT was deeply annoying politically but he never came across as a Farage backer. He was fairly unequivocally opposed to No Deal as well, if I recall. Would be weird to think he could end up on our side in a second referendum.

[Gemmill 34535]

Peter fucking Shilton posting conspiracy theories about it, the fuzzy headed tax dodging, no penalty saving cunt. 

[Rayvin 4964]

1 minute ago, PaddockLad said:

People are perfectly ok with being lied to by proven liars. As long as they agree with the lies they are being told theres not a problem. Were all fucked, as Rents said the other day, its time for each of us  to look after ourselves and our loved ones. The message from the gullible to immigrants, NI & Scotland is "tough fuckin shit". 

 

Aye but once we do that, we've basically become Tories in outlook, have we not? And maybe that's just the natural progression of things. One way or another, and I'm aware of how elitist this is going to sound, the working and underclass have completely taken for granted (and ridiculed) the principled middle class voters who consistently vote against their own interests in order to try to create a better world for everyone.

 

The other side of the argument I suppose is that we could be accused of doing the same thing by not paying attention to their concerns and just trying to shut down conversations about immigration with cries of racism. There needs to be some manner of reconciliation, and it probably needs a common enemy. We're a long way from that point though.

 

Brexit absolutely needs to fuck off first, either way. And genuinely, the only way to do it that can actually provide a foundation for healing the country, is if we have a second vote. Most leavers, I am sure (as CT himself said) would just accept Remaining and get on with their lives. And then we can come back together, without, I hope, the fucking Tories.

[Renton 17811]

1 minute ago, Rayvin said:

 

Not been online since April 3rd so my conscience dictates I have to say something along the lines of "I hope he's doing ok".

 

With that out of the way, it's possible he flounced after a bust up with your good self a couple of months back

 

Agree though, CT was deeply annoying politically but he never came across as a Farage backer. He was fairly unequivocally opposed to No Deal as well, if I recall. Would be weird to think he could end up on our side in a second referendum.

 

Yeah, he flounced from what was a fairly innocuous post, one where I specifically stated I didn't think he was racist, just incredibly gullible. Thus was in response to some nationalistic bullshit he was spouting. 

 

I think we're all aware this place is a bubble, and people with views like CT are abused. Bu in his case, he deserves it because, like Boris, he has shown himself to be a liar time and time again. 

[PaddockLad 14610]

9 minutes ago, Rayvin said:

 

Aye but once we do that, we've basically become Tories in outlook, have we not? And maybe that's just the natural progression of things. One way or another, and I'm aware of how elitist this is going to sound, the working and underclass have completely taken for granted (and ridiculed) the principled middle class voters who consistently vote against their own interests in order to try to create a better world for everyone.

 

The other side of the argument I suppose is that we could be accused of doing the same thing by not paying attention to their concerns and just trying to shut down conversations about immigration with cries of racism. There needs to be some manner of reconciliation, and it probably needs a common enemy. We're a long way from that point though.

 

Brexit absolutely needs to fuck off first, either way. And genuinely, the only way to do it that can actually provide a foundation for healing the country, is if we have a second vote. Most leavers, I am sure (as CT himself said) would just accept Remaining and get on with their lives. And then we can come back together, without, I hope, the fucking Tories.

 

It's over mate, they've won and they're winning all over the western  world. Being on the right side of the see debate is irrelevant. The brexiteers have the power of democracy on their side, regardless of how corrupted it is. I've not really contributed much lately to this thread because I've been of the opinion for some time that if we want a semblance of democracy to survive in its present form we need to leave and that now almost certainly means no deal. 

 

Can't see much reconciliation for a good couple of decades untill the present shower at Westminster have exited the stage. Hopefully very much sooner they can take the two main parties with them and consign them to the toilet of history where they belong. Maybe we can then try for some sort of PR. People are at least engaged with the idea that change is necessary

[Rayvin 4964]

1 minute ago, PaddockLad said:

 

It's over mate, they've won and they're winning all over the western  world. Being on the right side of the see debate is irrelevant. The brexiteers have the power of democracy on their side, regardless of how corrupted it is. I've not really contributed much lately to this thread because I've been of the opinion for some time that if we want a semblance of democracy to survive in its present form we need to leave and that now almost certainly means no deal. 

 

Can't see much reconciliation for a good couple of decades untill the present shower at Westminster have exited the stage. Hopefully very much sooner they can take the two main parties with them and consign them to the toilet of history where they belong. Maybe we can then try for some sort of PR. People are at least engaged with the idea that change is necessary

 

I do see where you're coming from. I'm continuing to stick with Remain on the basis that pragmatism suggests that if everyone -can- just get over it, it's a lot better for all of us. However, I'm not in the crowd that think we should just revoke and stop talking about it - that would be a betrayal too far.

 

And I suppose the Leave voters have been betrayed here. By the Tories alone, but still.

 

We need to reform the narrative from the left, centre it on economics and income inequality, and bolster education on citizenship at schools. One good thing to come from all of this is that the doors have been well and truly blown off political correctness. It was never fixing anything, it just drove everything underground where it could fester and then return with a vengeance. Maybe the left can focus on more unifying issues now.

[ewerk 26417]

5 minutes ago, PaddockLad said:

I've been of the opinion for some time that if we want a semblance of democracy to survive in its present form we need to leave and that now almost certainly means no deal. 

 

Seriously? You think that it's democratic to have 52% of voters lied to and duped? You think it's democratic to let them away with that and wreck our economy at the same time? That's not democracy, my friend, it's cowardice.

[PaddockLad 14610]

5 minutes ago, ewerk said:

Seriously? You think that it's democratic to have 52% of voters lied to and duped? You think it's democratic to let them away with that and wreck our economy at the same time? That's not democracy, my friend, it's cowardice.

 

No I completely agree with your point of view. I hardly need to post the terms of the referendum to you though do I? 

 

How do you suggest a people's vote or some other solution that might deliver sanity gets through parliament? 

[ewerk 26417]

5 minutes ago, PaddockLad said:

 

No I completely agree with your point of view. I hardly need to post the terms of the referendum to you though do I? 

 

How do you suggest a people's vote or some other solution that might deliver sanity gets through parliament? 

The terms of the referendum were advisory. The likes of JRM and Farage have already suggested a second referendum. You can't call another vote undemocratic given we know so much more about the situation than we did then. If remain loses the second vote then fair enough, they can have it.

Edited May 29, 2019 by ewerk

[Rayvin 4964]

1 minute ago, ewerk said:

The terms of the referendum we advisory. The likes of JRM and Farage have already suggested a second referendum. You can't call another vote undemocratic given we know so much more about the situation than we do now. If remain loses the second vote then fair enough, they can have it.

 

Indeed, if we lose next time out then there's nothing to be said. Everyone knew what they were voting for, it'd be done.

[Renton 17811]

But we have the issue that Johnson's popularity is possibly increasing not despite him being taken to court as a proven liar, but because of it. And this popularism is reflected globally. Brexit is symptomatic of a much deeper problem imo. I've been slow to wake up to it and fuck knows what the solution is. 

[PaddockLad 14610]

2 minutes ago, ewerk said:

The terms of the referendum were advisory. The likes of JRM and Farage have already suggested a second referendum. You can't call another vote undemocratic given we know so much more about the situation than we did then. If remain loses the second vote then fair enough, they can have it.

 

In my opinion nobody in Westminster has the balls to call it like that. I'm no where near an expert but I cant see it if Johnson is sat in number 10 come August. 

[Rayvin 4964]

@Renton Corbyn would have been a perfect solution for a lot of it if he had just occurred before Brexit did or we had won the damn referendum first time out. Left wing populism. Same for Sanders in the US.

 

Beyond that, we need to start talking to people who have unpalatable views and demonstrate clearly and concisely why they are wrong. Unifying messages about diversity would have helped also, ones that don't denigrate one group to push up another (why would this ever lead to unity, seriously). A lot of this is really basic stuff that no one is prepared to acknowledge.

 

It's too late to suppress it now, it has to be actively fought.

Edited May 29, 2019 by Rayvin

[ewerk 26417]

6 minutes ago, PaddockLad said:

 

In my opinion nobody in Westminster has the balls to call it like that. I'm no where near an expert but I cant see it if Johnson is sat in number 10 come August. 

No deal won't happen. There are enough sane heads in the Conservative party who will bring the government down before they let that happen. If it comes to that then we get a PV.

[ewerk 26417]

4 minutes ago, Rayvin said:

@Renton Corbyn would have been a perfect solution for a lot of it if he had just occurred before Brexit did or we had won the damn referendum first time out. Left wing populism. Same for Sanders in the US.

 

Beyond that, we need to start talking to people who have unpalatable views and demonstrate clearly and concisely why they are wrong. Unifying messages about diversity would have helped also, ones that don't denigrate one group to push up another (why would this ever lead to unity, seriously). A lot of this is really basic stuff that no one is prepared to acknowledge.

 

It's too late to suppress it now, it has to be actively fought.

Bullshit. Look at what has happened the likes of Milo since he was banned from social media. He's back to being a nobody. Cutting off their avenues to publicity works.

[Rayvin 4964]

6 minutes ago, ewerk said:

Bullshit. Look at what has happened the likes of Milo since he was banned from social media. He's back to being a nobody. Cutting off their avenues to publicity works.

 

Milo disappeared because the republican right wing abandoned him for saying he thought it was ok for young boys and men to have sexual relationships.

 

Tommy Robinson has been banned from everything except Youtube and while he "only" got 2.2% of the vote in the North West, that was 40,000 people. Sargon has been banned from everything except Youtube and got 60,000 or so votes.

 

There are too many upstart mediums for them to get their messages across now.

[Renton 17811]

15 minutes ago, ewerk said:

No deal won't happen. There are enough sane heads in the Conservative party who will bring the government down before they let that happen. If it comes to that then we get a PV.

 

I think you're right but....... 

It's not in our gift to insist on an extension for a PV. There is a chance amongst the turmoil Macron will say "non". The EU may conclude they will have more to gain pushing the tent pisser out of the tent. Especially with the BP cunts fouling the EU parliament. 

Edited May 29, 2019 by Renton

[Rayvin 4964]

Just now, Renton said:

 

I think you're right but....... 

It's not in our gift to insist on an extension for a PV. There is a chance amongst the turmoil Macron will say "non". The EU may conclude they will have more to gain pushing the rent pisser out of the tent. Especially with the BP cunts fouling the EU parliament. 

 

I think the EU will give us it, they must be pretty damn certain Remain would win.

[Rayvin 4964]

Also, Ian Lavery has decided we're all snooty leftwing intellectuals...

 

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2019/may/29/labour-chair-peoples-vote-backers-sneering-ordinary-people-ian-lavery

 

The message is really simple Ian. If you don't back a people's vote, you're not winning a GE. That's it. Unless you think Labour can appeal to the xenophobic/racist vote as well as the ordinary working class leavers, you're fucked.

[Renton 17811]

1 minute ago, Rayvin said:

 

I think the EU will give us it, they must be pretty damn certain Remain would win.

 

But a Remain win doesn't get rid of Farage. You're probably right but I do wonder if we are so blinkered we don't see that it's the EU who will decide now, not us. 

[Renton 17811]

1 minute ago, Rayvin said:

Also, Ian Lavery has decided we're all snooty leftwing intellectuals...

 

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2019/may/29/labour-chair-peoples-vote-backers-sneering-ordinary-people-ian-lavery

 

The message is really simple Ian. If you don't back a people's vote, you're not winning a GE. That's it. Unless you think Labour can appeal to the xenophobic/racist vote as well as the ordinary working class leavers, you're fucked.

 

Nothing snooty about it. I hate that corrupt cunt and his stupid fucking accent.