Politics

[ewerk 35030]

Criticism of Israel does not equal antisemitism.

 

Chanting death of the IDF isn’t antisemitism.

 

Chanting death to the IDF is however most likely a crime in this country but not antisemitic. It is probably wrong and I did think of the likes of Gloom’s conscripted family when I read about it. Bibi seems to liken any criticism of the Israeli government’s actions to antisemitism and it couldn’t be further from the truth but it has worked for him.

 

The likes of Bob Vylan and Kneecap know they aren’t making a difference by making a stand but it keeps it in the public eye when the UK government appears to be doing fuck all about it.

[Rayvin 6727]

1 minute ago, ewerk said:

Criticism of Israel does not equal antisemitism.

 

Chanting death of the IDF isn’t antisemitism.

 

Chanting death to the IDF is however most likely a crime in this country but not antisemitic. It is probably wrong and I did think of the likes of Gloom’s conscripted family when I read about it. Bibi seems to liken any criticism of the Israeli government’s actions to antisemitism and it couldn’t be further from the truth but it has worked for him.

 

The likes of Bob Vylan and Kneecap know they aren’t making a difference by making a stand but it keeps it in the public eye when the UK government appears to be doing fuck all about it.

 

It will be whatever the government decides it is in the end. I'm wondering if they might be about to use this to make a show of going after left leaning people and putting them in prison same as they did for the hotel burning fiasco.

[ewerk 35030]

We still live in a country with separation of powers so I won’t blame the government for the outcome even if their reaction has been identical to that of the right.

[Meenzer 17045]

44 minutes ago, Dr Gloom said:

Trump is with Russia, not Ukraine, but Europe is supposed to be on Ukraine’s side too. I’m always struck by how that particular genocide doesn’t inspire the same level of solidarity here in the UK. I didn’t spot a single Ukraine flag during any performance at Glastonbury. Nor did I hear any artists lead any rousing chants of “Slava Ukraine”, despite Netanyahu’s tactics of siege and starvation coming straight out of Putin’s playbook. 

 

There has been in the past - e.g. https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/entertainment-arts-61943613 - but it's true (if grim and sad) that there seems to be a degree of "conflict fatigue" where Ukraine is concerned, yes.

[Dr Gloom 24726]

23 minutes ago, Rayvin said:

 

I get that for sure. I would throw into the mix as well though that the UK supports Israel whereas it doesn't support Russia - so there's a domestic angle to it there. There's not much more anyone can do than what we're doing with the Ukraine, the government supports them and is assisting them - Russia doesn't give a shit if we protest them but Israel does actually on some level respond to international pressure. So arguably people's energy is actually better spent on Gaza than it is on Ukraine.

 

I think if people's feeds were full of dead and dying Ukrainian children it'd be different though, tbh.

I actually think the amount Starmer can influence Netanyahu is negligible but I take your point. The issue is Trump. Netanyahu won’t stop until Trump tells him to but sadly he has his biggest cheerleader in the White House. Biden was fucking senile in his last year as president and should never have ran again but I’m convinced we wouldn’t be where we are today with a democratic president in the White House. Bibi upped the stakes before the election and doubled down after Trump started his second term knowing he’d have his support. 

Edited Tuesday at 17:47 by Dr Gloom

[Rayvin 6727]

3 minutes ago, Dr Gloom said:

I actually think the amount Starmer can influence Netanyahu is negligible but I take your point. The issue is Trump. Netanyahu won’t stop until Trump tells him to but sadly he has his biggest cheerleader in the White House. Biden was fucking senile in his last year as president and should never have ran again but I’m convinced we wouldn’t be where we are today with a democratic president in the White House. Bibi upped the stakes before the election and doubled down after Trump started his second term knowing he’d have his support. 

 

Agreed about Starmer tbf but we could stop supplying arms. Instead we're branding the people trying to prevent planes going over there as terrorists. 

 

I don't think any sort of genuine de-escalation is even possible anymore tbh, the hatred will span generations. Maybe if Netanyahu answered for war crimes but I don't think he values the peace and safety of his own people enough for that.

[ohhh_yeah 3130]

3 hours ago, Renton said:

 

It really isn't whataboutery at all though, the "crimes" are directly connected. I don't see it remotely as a hate crime personally, I don't equate the IDF as being synonymous with being Jewish, but if I'm not allowed an opinion based on my non-jewish ethnicity then yes, let's take it to court and let them decide. Meanwhile let the atrocities continue and make sure nobody can speak out against it for fear of being labelled an antisemite.

 

 

This!   

 

Edited Tuesday at 19:35 by ohhh_yeah

[strawb 4954]

5 hours ago, Dr Gloom said:

Yeah, I’ve seen them, which is why my position changed from where I was after  October 7, where I could see why Israel needed to retaliate, to where it is today after the assault on Gaza intensified. I’m not here to defend what Israel is doing. 

 

I’ve also seen similar harrowing videos coming out of Ukraine, the forgotten genocide.

 

Maybe it’s my Jewish paranoia but it appears to me that some genocides matter more than others

Sorry mate, I try not to get involved in conversations that I’m outmatched in. 
 

But you called whataboutism earlier, this is pure whataboutism.

 

Its not forgotten about at all, by anyone.

 

And it does come across as Jewish paranoia.

[Dr Gloom 24726]

6 hours ago, strawb said:

Sorry mate, I try not to get involved in conversations that I’m outmatched in. 
 

But you called whataboutism earlier, this is pure whataboutism.

 

Its not forgotten about at all, by anyone.

 

And it does come across as Jewish paranoia.

It isn’t whataboutery. I’m not criticising anyone for supporting Palestine. I am moved by the solidarity and support to the cause.

 

This is a genuine observation. Clearly there is equivalence between Ukraine and Gaza. But where I live in London there are scores of houses with Palestine flags or “Free Palestine” posters in their front windows, and have been since even the early days following October 7. I’ve never seen a single Ukrainian flag displayed in a similar way. We also know about the regular marches down here, which continue deep into the conflict. Again, you don’t see this show of support for Ukraine.

 

Maybe it’s as Rayvin says and people

are just more inclined to show support because the UK is allied to Israel and Russia is our enemy. Or maybe it’s because people really fucking hate Israel. My personal view is Netanyahu and Putin are cut from the same cloth 

 

You’ll have to forgive my Jewish paranoia but I’ll put it this way: this forum, where I’m protected by anonymity, is where I choose to air these views now. I’ve stopped trying to engage in these conversations with friends anymore. No body wants to hear this side of the story. Perhaps i’ll stop here too. 

[Alex 38500]

18 minutes ago, Dr Gloom said:

It isn’t whataboutery. I’m not criticising anyone for supporting Palestine. I am moved by the solidarity and support to the cause.

 

This is a genuine observation. Clearly there is equivalence between Ukraine and Gaza. But where I live in London there are scores of houses with Palestine flags or “Free Palestine” posters in their front windows, and have been since even the early days following October 7. I’ve never seen a single Ukrainian flag displayed in a similar way. We also know about the regular marches down here, which continue deep into the conflict. Again, you don’t see this show of support for Ukraine.

 

Maybe it’s as Rayvin says and people

are just more inclined to show support because the UK is allied to Israel and Russia is our enemy. Or maybe it’s because people really fucking hate Israel. My personal view is Netanyahu and Putin are cut from the same cloth 

 

You’ll have to forgive my Jewish paranoia but I’ll put it this way: this forum, where I’m protected by anonymity, is where I choose to air these views now. I’ve stopped trying to engage in these conversations with friends anymore. No body wants to hear this side of the story. Perhaps i’ll stop here too. 

Please don’t stop. Without wishing to put words in people’s mouths, I’d hope everyone on here would be similar to me and would feel terrible about it if you no longer felt able to or wanted to express your views about this on here. I tend to keep out of this but not because of a lack of interest or caring, more a sense hopelessness about the whole situation. 
On the point of Ukraine as opposed to Palestine then I suppose the main difference in perception is Ukraine being able to defend itself and countries like ours helping them to do so. With Palestine then at best we’re doing nothing and at worst we’re fully complicit (or somewhere in between). It’s highly unlikely any UK PM would or could’ve felt they could act differently but it’s still a marked difference in the stance towards the two conflicts. 
On the other side I think it must be incredibly difficult to be (for want of a better term) ‘openly Jewish’ and express yourself without fear of being attacked. Either literally or in a figurative sense online and so on. I can’t really imagine what that is like. It’s probably always been a bit like that but it must be so much worse now. I doubt it’s as bad for people with  Russian heritage living in the UK even. Although I’m sure that can’t be easy at times either. 

[Dr Gloom 24726]

2 minutes ago, Alex said:

Please don’t stop. Without wishing to put words in people’s mouths, I’d hope everyone on here would be similar to me and would feel terrible about it if you no longer felt able to or wanted to express your views about this on here. I tend to keep out of this but not because of a lack of interest or caring, more a sense hopelessness about the whole situation. 
On the point of Ukraine as opposed to Palestine then I suppose the main difference in perception is Ukraine being able to defend itself and countries like ours helping them to do so. With Palestine then at best we’re doing nothing and at worst we’re fully complicit (or somewhere in between). It’s highly unlikely any UK PM would or could’ve felt they could act differently but it’s still a marked difference in the stance towards the two conflicts. 
On the other side I think it must be incredibly difficult to be (for want of a better term) ‘openly Jewish’ and express yourself without fear of being attacked. Either literally or in a figurative sense online and so on. I can’t really imagine what that is like. It’s probably always been a bit like that but it must be so much worse now. I doubt it’s as bad for people with  Russian heritage living in the UK even. Although I’m sure that can’t be easy at times either. 

It’s probably similar, actually. I got chatting to a young Russian kid at a dnb night a few months back. Really nice lad who moved to London because of his love of the music. I got chatting to him in the smoking area about background etc and he reluctantly revealed he was Russian. Prior to that he asked me to guess where he was from, I guessed Eastern Europe before he explained that sometimes people are put off because of his background, which I found really sad. As if he’s in anyway responsible for what is happening back home. I suppose I feel the same when people chant “death to the IDF”. There are plenty of innocent kids in the IDF, who would rather not be following orders  

[Howmanheyman 39023]

All I'll say on the matter is that there was people wondering why the west didn't show as much solidarity with the Palestinians as they did with Ukraine? In the early days there were more Ukrainian flags on view, because of weariness or helplessness there now isn't as many on view but I saw more Ukrainian flags than I have Palestinian flags. (This is in real life in Newcastle, I didn't see any Palestinian flags at all). I understand that London is not Newcastle and on-line you're now seeing what looks like a mass recreation of the camp commandant in Schindler's list just taking potshots of people trying to survive which is the sickest irony going. I just wish every cunt participating would stop and the people responsible for this misery around the world could just slither back under their rocks or take one for team evil and just croak it whatever their colours are. Murder is murder and there's just too much of it going on across the globe lead by cunts who should be in the Hague. I genuinely couldn't give a fuck what religion a murderer is, I'm sure the lawyers at Nuremberg didn't either?

 

I'd also say if the cap fits, wear it, if it doesn't, don't. I don't think for one second every Russian, Israeli, Palestinian, American are murderers or wrong'uns just like every Irishman wasn't during the troubles but I do understand the slight paranoia.

Edited yesterday at 07:13 by Howmanheyman

[Renton 25092]

Interesting mind, I'd say around where I live there were a lot more Ukrainian flags displaying solidarity for the country than Palestinian flags. Admittedly these have decreased markedly due to war fatigue.

 

When I see either I never think about it from the angle of hating Russia or Israel or it people. I believe usually its to express a genuine sentiment for the wars to stop.

 

Edit: posted just after HMHM's post. I think he's spot on.

Edited yesterday at 07:09 by Renton

[Rayvin 6727]

I still think we should be careful talking about this at all atm. The US is genuinely banning people from entry for the smallest things now and a lot of those things involve criticising Israel. Who knows when that might affect you over the next 4 years.

 

And thats before we get into the nonsense of the UK government trumping up terrorism charges for acts of sabotage. Supporting that group will soon be condoning terrorism, which will also be illegal.

 

I dont think we are free to talk about this to the degree we should be.

[Dr Gloom 24726]

I’m surprised. I noticed a couple of pro Palestine demos around the monument the last two times I was home for the match. 
 

Perhaps it’s a reflection of demographics in the two cities. Though I don’t work in a big Muslim part of town. It’s mostly white middle class avocado and falafel munchers in my corner of south east london.  

[ewerk 35030]

1 hour ago, Dr Gloom said:

It isn’t whataboutery. I’m not criticising anyone for supporting Palestine. I am moved by the solidarity and support to the cause.

 

This is a genuine observation. Clearly there is equivalence between Ukraine and Gaza. But where I live in London there are scores of houses with Palestine flags or “Free Palestine” posters in their front windows, and have been since even the early days following October 7. I’ve never seen a single Ukrainian flag displayed in a similar way. We also know about the regular marches down here, which continue deep into the conflict. Again, you don’t see this show of support for Ukraine.

 

Maybe it’s as Rayvin says and people

are just more inclined to show support because the UK is allied to Israel and Russia is our enemy. Or maybe it’s because people really fucking hate Israel. My personal view is Netanyahu and Putin are cut from the same cloth 

 

You’ll have to forgive my Jewish paranoia but I’ll put it this way: this forum, where I’m protected by anonymity, is where I choose to air these views now. I’ve stopped trying to engage in these conversations with friends anymore. No body wants to hear this side of the story. Perhaps i’ll stop here too. 

 

If you want to feel some love and support for the Israeli people then take a trip over to NI and I’ll take you round some loyalist areas where you’ll see plenty of Israeli flags flying.  

 

 

And obviously it’s because of a deep rooted love for the country of Israel and not just because nationalists support the Palestinians. 

[ewerk 35030]

2 minutes ago, Rayvin said:

I still think we should be careful talking about this at all atm. The US is genuinely banning people from entry for the smallest things now and a lot of those things involve criticising Israel. Who knows when that might affect you over the next 4 years.

 

And thats before we get into the nonsense of the UK government trumping up terrorism charges for acts of sabotage. Supporting that group will soon be condoning terrorism, which will also be illegal.

 

I dont think we are free to talk about this to the degree we should be.

Unless the name on your passport is Rayvin then I think you’re safe enough.  

 

I don’t have a single social media account under my own name so good luck with them banning me.

[Rayvin 6727]

Just now, ewerk said:

Unless the name on your passport is Rayvin then I think you’re safe enough.  

 

I don’t have a single social media account under my own name so good luck with them banning me.

 

I suspect it wouldn't be too difficult to trace it all. They've got an AI doing it apparently - but yeah maybe you're right. Not sure it's worth the risk though. I keep thinking that some of my clients are US based and if I end up in a position where im banned from going out to them its a really awkward conversation to have.

[Renton 25092]

1 minute ago, ewerk said:

Unless the name on your passport is Rayvin then I think you’re safe enough.  

 

I don’t have a single social media account under my own name so good luck with them banning me.

 

Yeah, if they're taking the bother to unmask every anonymous account on an obscure football board then I think it's the airport queues that will put me off more than anything. Not that I have any intention of travelling to the US unless I absolutely can't avoid it.

[Dr Gloom 24726]

3 minutes ago, ewerk said:

 

If you want to feel some love and support for the Israeli people then take a trip over to NI and I’ll take you round some loyalist areas where you’ll see plenty of Israeli flags flying.  

 

 

And obviously it’s because of a deep rooted love for the country of Israel and not just because nationalists support the Palestinians. 

 

it’s utterly depressing that the only people that seem to have our back at the moment are the likes of Tommy Robinson and his supporters - that David Mitchell “are we the baddies?” meme springs to mind. And by “we”, I mean Jews, not Israel. 
 

I’m not trying to be deliberately provocative here but in the days following October 7, there was a striking absence of solidarity shown on the streets of London. And the pro Palestine marches and protests were in full swing long before Israel launched its retaliatory strikes. Again, possibly my Jewish paranoia but it’s hard not to notice these things. 

[ewerk 35030]

6 minutes ago, Dr Gloom said:

 

it’s utterly depressing that the only people that seem to have our back at the moment are the likes of Tommy Robinson and his supporters - that David Mitchell “are we the baddies?” meme springs to mind. And by “we”, I mean Jews, not Israel. 
 

I’m not trying to be deliberately provocative here but in the days following October 7, there was a striking absence of solidarity shown on the streets of London. And the pro Palestine marches and protests were in full swing long before Israel launched its retaliatory strikes. Again, possibly my Jewish paranoia but it’s hard not to notice these things. 

It’s natural to see a lot more support for the oppressed than the oppressors.

[Renton 25092]

13 minutes ago, Dr Gloom said:

 

it’s utterly depressing that the only people that seem to have our back at the moment are the likes of Tommy Robinson and his supporters - that David Mitchell “are we the baddies?” meme springs to mind. And by “we”, I mean Jews, not Israel. 
 

I’m not trying to be deliberately provocative here but in the days following October 7, there was a striking absence of solidarity shown on the streets of London. And the pro Palestine marches and protests were in full swing long before Israel launched its retaliatory strikes. Again, possibly my Jewish paranoia but it’s hard not to notice these things. 

 

I wonder if that's because October 7th was more seen as an actual of terror whereas Israel's attack on Gaza is state led? I don't recall many US flags after 9/11 either, for instance. But everybody I know and the media were both horrified by both events. I'd say the media has been more than supportive of Israel since and not condemnatory anywhere near enough of the horrors their government is committing.

When I see a Palestinian flags I think it just means a different thing to me than you. I don't see it as an act of hatred against the Jewish people, I see it as a sign of solidarity for the Palestinian people. I am aware there are also unsavoury messages especially at marches but you can't ascribe that to all people who are horrified by this war.

 

Oh, and Tommy Robinson doesn't have your back, he is just slightly more islamophobic than he is antisemitic. I am sure you know this.

Edited yesterday at 07:40 by Renton

[Howmanheyman 39023]

11 minutes ago, ewerk said:

 

If you want to feel some love and support for the Israeli people then take a trip over to NI and I’ll take you round some loyalist areas where you’ll see plenty of Israeli flags flying.  

 

 

And obviously it’s because of a deep rooted love for the country of Israel and not just because nationalists support the Palestinians. 

 

I used to get the odd IRA, Irish, Gerry Adams cunt comment as a teen if I ever wore a N Ireland top or said where some of my family were from or where I'd been if talking about holidays, some of it was in jest but not all but then I could've walked around 80s and 90s Newcastle wearing a sash and banging a large drum on my chest then picking up a flute and still would've got those comments whereas these days people are a bit more enlightened and it would now be proddy cunt instead.

[Renton 25092]

Just now, Howmanheyman said:

 

I used to get the odd IRA, Irish, Gerry Adams cunt comment as a teen if I ever wore a N Ireland top or said where some of my family were from or where I'd been if talking about holidays, some of it was in jest but not all but then I could've walked around 80s and 90s Newcastle wearing a sash and banging a large drum on my chest then picking up a flute and still would've got those comments whereas these days people are a bit more enlightened and it would now be proddy cunt instead.

 

HMHM aged 12 talking to his mates in the '80s:

 

"Naah man am not supporting the IRA man, a had a dream last night and am supporting our future Saudi overlords".

[Dr Gloom 24726]

Just now, ewerk said:

It’s natural to see a lot more support for the oppressed than the oppressors.

Yes, I understand that. I also understand, though don’t agree, with those who say the October 7 attacks were the act of a wounded animal. It was the sort or barbarism we are also seeing displayed by the IDF soldiers opening fire on starving people queuing for rations.

 

I was surprised at the lack of compassion and solidarity, in London at least, for the many people butchered in Israel on that terrible day, most of whom were civilians. I appreciate its partially a result of the decades of conflict that preceded it and Israel’s postion as the oppressor.
 

But when you look at the numbers below (from wkypedia) you can see how it scarred Israelis and led to the surge in nationalism (and fear) which helped facilitate Netanyahu’s actions:

 

1,195 people were killed:^[33][e] 736 Israeli civilians (including 36 children),^[38] 79 foreign nationals, and 379 members of the security forces.^[39][f][40] 364 civilians were killed and many more wounded while attending the Nova music festival.

 

About 250 Israeli civilians and soldiers were taken as hostages to the Gaza Strip.^{[29][45][46][47]} Dozens of cases of rape and sexual assault reportedly occurred, but Hamas officials denied the involvement of their fighters.^[48]