Politics

[Toonpack 12727]

2 hours ago, NJS said:

In general they voted for brexit and consistently vote tory. 

 

All of them (us) ???

[The Fish 11678]

1 minute ago, Toonpack said:

 

All of them (us) ???

No, that's why the quote says "In general".

[Rayvin 6730]

One thing I've been reflecting on lately with respect of this argument over immigration, especially if it's coming up with family members - you don't need to 'win' that one because Labour have gone all in on it anyway. They've already halved incoming numbers and they're planning to get it down to about 200k, which would be a staggering achievement on that metric. Under the Tories we were at 900k net a year, it's now 400k. It's not going to improve anything, but it's one less thing we can blame - eventually maybe we'll be able to actually address a lot of this.

 

I saw a good article the other day from 3 years ago, basically saying that sorting the housing crisis would alleviate so much of the pain atm: https://www.theguardian.com/books/2022/jan/17/the-big-idea-could-fixing-housing-fix-everything-else-too?CMP=share_btn_url

[Toonpack 12727]

2 hours ago, Rayvin said:

I understand TPs point but I have some of those vox pops from Brexit etched into my brain.

 

"What if its harder for your children in their future?"

 

"Dont care, sovereignty!"

 

"What if your son loses his job"

 

"Dont care, sovereignty!!!!"

 

It makes it intensely difficult to view it as just something the government and corporations did. The government and corporations didn't want Brexit.

 

Brexit was on the back of a massed misinformation campaign aimed at thick (predominantly English) cunts who've never read a book. Before Cameron fucked up with his appease the ERG referendum, no-one young or old gave a fuck about "sovereignty" and the EU. Who created that noise? The planet is fucked, who did that ?, disposable consumerism is rampant, who did that (certainly not the old) ?? It wasn't at the behest of "the old".

 

 

[NJS 4826]

That's correct but Cameron was driven by the fear of losing 15 or 20 seats to ukip and that danger came from their polling based in those seats which was based on older voters (in general). 

[Gemmill 53896]

Disposable consumerism has been rampant since the 80s. It was basically invented by boomers. 

[Toonpack 12727]

18 minutes ago, The Fish said:

No, that's why the quote says "In general".

 

Implies the vast majority, "in general" usually means predominantly.

 

When blaming "the old" it is far too wide a label, maybe look at where "the old" have demonstrably voted consistently for stuff that's fucked up stuff. The "Southern Old" would be acceptable. 

[Renton 25127]

6 minutes ago, Toonpack said:

 

Implies the vast majority, "in general" usually means predominantly.

 

When blaming "the old" it is far too wide a label, maybe look at where "the old" have demonstrably voted consistently for stuff that's fucked up stuff. The "Southern Old" would be acceptable. 

 

This is 2019 data but you get the gist. 

 

[Rayvin 6730]

 

2 hours ago, Renton said:

 

The older my mum has got, the more bigoted and judgmental she has become. Seems to me that this happens to a lot of older people as they age. I hope I end up more like you TP than her tbh. It scares me I might end up like that.

 

When I'm 75 I'll just be asking a younger person who they would want me to vote for and go with that.

[Toonpack 12727]

6 minutes ago, Gemmill said:

Disposable consumerism has been rampant since the 80s. It was basically invented by boomers. 

Source? Because I reckon (as a boomer) that's utter bollocks.

 

We never had new trainers every 5 minutes, disposable cheap fashion shite, new phone every year, didn't even have a fucking phone. Designed obsolescence wasn't a thing until I'd heard of until the 90's.

[Gemmill 53896]

Ok well let's say you're right. You're not, and I'm absolutely blown away that you lived through the 80s and don't think that that was a decade of rampant disposable consumerism. 

 

But let's say you're right and it started in the 90s.

 

Who is benefitting from that rampant, disposable consumerism? By which I mean who is profiting. Who is the driving force behind designed obsolescence? Who is making money from turning everyone into consumers and convincing them that they need the next thing now. 

 

It's not the youth of today or even the youth of the 90s. It's fucking boomers. They're the ones getting rich off it and they are (largely) the ones who have resisted every call to say "lads we're completely fucking the planet here, can we maybe think about not doing this". 

[Renton 25127]

1 minute ago, Toonpack said:

Source? Because I reckon (as a boomer) that's utter bollocks.

 

We never had new trainers every 5 minutes, disposable cheap fashion shite, new phone every year, didn't even have a fucking phone. Designed obsolescence wasn't a thing until I'd heard of until the 90's.

 

Oh come on. Really? All those things happened in the 80s. The tellys, kitchen gadgets, foreign holidays, Bigg market clobber etc. Okay, not phones as they weren't invented, but id say people keep their phones much longer than they did in the early days. But we're all guilty of it anyway, it's just wrong to pin consumerism with the young who were bought up by the previous generation anyway.

 

You're being too defensive. Its not all older people. But there is a sizable demographic that not only have massively benefitted from when they were born, particularly in regards to education, housing, and pensions, but actively sneer at the young in precisely the way Fish has described.

[Rayvin 6730]

2 minutes ago, Toonpack said:

Source? Because I reckon (as a boomer) that's utter bollocks.

 

We never had new trainers every 5 minutes, disposable cheap fashion shite, new phone every year, didn't even have a fucking phone. Designed obsolescence wasn't a thing until I'd heard of until the 90's.

 

That was Thatcher - carried out in tandem with Reagan. https://www.theguardian.com/books/2016/apr/15/neoliberalism-ideology-problem-george-monbiot

 

Neoliberalism sees competition as the defining characteristic of human relations. It redefines citizens as consumers, whose democratic choices are best exercised by buying and selling, a process that rewards merit and punishes inefficiency. It maintains that “the market” delivers benefits that could never be achieved by planning.

[Toonpack 12727]

3 minutes ago, Renton said:

 

This is 2019 data but you get the gist. 

 

 

What's the geographic distribution, I'd get extremely vexxed if you lump me in with codger cunts from Hertfordshire.

 

Additionally what's the population number for each age band ? I'm guessing there's more folks under 60 voted for the tories than the over 60's.

 

All that said, the people who should be getting pelters are those don't vote.

[Holden McGroin 8267]

On a slightly different topic; they say say you get more right wing as you get older so I wonder if I'll be right-wing in 20 years? Grumbling on about Foreigners stealing our jobs and benefit fraud etc etc

 

My mother has already shifted that way albeit since my Dad died she has slowly lost her way.

[Craig 8122]

27 minutes ago, Gemmill said:

Ok well let's say you're right. You're not, and I'm absolutely blown away that you lived through the 80s and don't think that that was a decade of rampant disposable consumerism. 

 

But let's say you're right and it started in the 90s.

 

Who is benefitting from that rampant, disposable consumerism? By which I mean who is profiting. Who is the driving force behind designed obsolescence? Who is making money from turning everyone into consumers and convincing them that they need the next thing now. 

 

It's not the youth of today or even the youth of the 90s. It's fucking boomers. They're the ones getting rich off it and they are (largely) the ones who have resisted every call to say "lads we're completely fucking the planet here, can we maybe think about not doing this". 

Absolutely nailed!

[Dr Gloom 24761]

17 minutes ago, Holden McGroin said:

On a slightly different topic; they say say you get more right wing as you get older so I wonder if I'll be right-wing in 20 years? Grumbling on about Foreigners stealing our jobs and benefit fraud etc etc

 

My mother has already shifted that way albeit since my Dad died she has slowly lost her way.

 

yeah, totally. i used to be an idealistic socialist in my youth, but the the slow creep to centrist dad is real. 

[Dr Gloom 24761]

for example, i used to wear CND badges. i now accept that nuclear weapons act as a deterrent. how fucking sad is that 

[The Fish 11678]

16 minutes ago, Toonpack said:

 

What's the geographic distribution, I'd get extremely vexxed if you lump me in with codger cunts from Hertfordshire.

 

Additionally what's the population number for each age band ? I'm guessing there's more folks under 60 voted for the tories than the over 60's.

 

All that said, the people who should be getting pelters are those don't vote.

 

No, the people who should get pelters are the career politicians and the people who've made that a career path towards the after dinner speaking circuit and sitting around the boardroom table of the companies who've benefited most from their politicking. 

 

The people who aren't voting, aren't voting because they're disengaged from politics. That's the media, that's the politicians and that's the actions of the elderly and ifirm.

[Toonpack 12727]

5 minutes ago, Gemmill said:

Ok well let's say you're right. You're not, and I'm absolutely blown away that you lived through the 80s and don't think that that was a decade of rampant disposable consumerism. 

 

But let's say you're right and it started in the 90s.

 

Who is benefitting from that rampant, disposable consumerism? By which I mean who is profiting. Who is the driving force behind designed obsolescence? Who is making money from turning everyone into consumers and convincing them that they need the next thing now. 

 

It's not the youth of today or even the youth of the 90s. It's fucking boomers. They're the ones getting rich off it and they are (largely) the ones who have resisted every call to say "lads we're completely fucking the planet here, can we maybe think about not doing this". 

 

Erm it's the corporations and the markets same as it was with the mill owners and the coal barrons etc etc, it's not some specific age group of the population.

 

As for the 80's I was newly married, had kids in the 80's in the days when pregnant women left work to have kids and you went down to one wage and made do/struggled through, and childcare was unheard of. I certainly had no income to indulge in disposable consumerism even if I could find it and I didn't know anyone who could.

 

Climate change wasn't a thing you even heard about until into the 2000's. The first thing I recall about the environment was the "hole in the ozone layer" stuff and CFC's - they weren't banned globally until 2010. The climate sceptics I am aware of (in my local) are way younger than me btw they also happen to be brexity, reform or torries so I have learned to avoid them.

[Toonpack 12727]

9 minutes ago, Craig said:

Absolutely nailed!

Bollocks

[Renton 25127]

19 minutes ago, Toonpack said:

 

What's the geographic distribution, I'd get extremely vexxed if you lump me in with codger cunts from Hertfordshire.

 

Additionally what's the population number for each age band ? I'm guessing there's more folks under 60 voted for the tories than the over 60's.

 

All that said, the people who should be getting pelters are those don't vote.

 

I'm not sure the absolute numbers are the most important here, but older people are more likely to vote so that gives them disproportionate weight. Often they are ferried in by the local conservative party around here. Which is obviously fair enough, although I can understand younger voters feeling disenfranchised. I'm not giving them pelters.

 

I mean, the uproar over WFA. Meanwhile, families with young children on the bread line get fuck all. Don't they need to be kept warm? I don't recall many pensioners pointing this out.

 

 

 

 

[Toonpack 12727]

8 minutes ago, The Fish said:

 

No, the people who should get pelters are the career politicians and the people who've made that a career path towards the after dinner speaking circuit and sitting around the boardroom table of the companies who've benefited most from their politicking. 

 

The people who aren't voting, aren't voting because they're disengaged from politics. That's the media, that's the politicians and that's the actions of the elderly and ifirm.

 

The majority of people who don't turn out to vote are the youngest demographics, who's fault is that ??

 

Christ, for most of my life I've been politically disengaged because with FPP for as long as Ican remeber my vote doesn't really count, I will vote for whoever can beat the Tory (but not reform obvs.) I'd vote green if it would make a difference, but it won't.

 

 

[Toonpack 12727]

13 minutes ago, Renton said:

 

I'm not sure the absolute numbers are the most important here, but older people are more likely to vote so that gives them disproportionate weight. Often they are ferried in by the local conservative party around here. Which is obviously fair enough, although I can understand younger voters feeling disenfranchised. I'm not giving them pelters.

 

I mean, the uproar over WFA. Meanwhile, families with young children on the bread line get fuck all. Don't they need to be kept warm? I don't recall many pensioners pointing this out.

 

 

 

 

 

Who's fucking fault is that ???

 

On the WFA, I am lucky in that I don't need it, but who stoked the uproar. It's all fucking manipulation, all of it.

 

Edit - the absolute numbers are absolutely important, if more younger folks voted Tory than old folks did the point about the old keep (kept) the torries in power is moot.

 

I don't know the answer but I'll do some digging tomorrow when I'll be on the ole PC and see what it looks like. I'll work over/under 60 (Boomer limit).

Edited 15 hours ago by Toonpack

[The Fish 11678]

3 minutes ago, Toonpack said:

 

The majority of people who don't turn out to vote are the youngest demographics, who's fault is that ??

 

Christ, for most of my life I've been politically disengaged because with FPP for as long as Ican remeber my vote doesn't really count, I will vote for whoever can beat the Tory (but not reform obvs.) I'd vote green if it would make a difference, but it won't.

 

 

Politicians, media, old people.