Politics

[Dr Gloom 19879]

55 minutes ago, Alex said:

She’s preaching to the choir somewhat in The Spectator though. And while I agree with the points in the latter half she undermines her own argument (and will cause many people to dismiss it) by being wilfully disingenuous at the beginning. The anecdotes about her life of having to defend herself for not being Jewish but caring about antisemitism smacks of bullshit too. And bringing JK Rowling into is her trying to be controversial for the sake of it. Which also diminishes her point imo. But that’s what she’s about. 

yeah, I generally find her deliberately provocative, inconsistent and snarky, and I’m no fan of the spectator, which is why I was surprised to find myself agreeing with her general point about the met’s inconsistencies. Open support for Islamist terrorists through the chanting of songs or waving of flags is fine but wearing a kippah on the streets of London is apparently now a crime. I despair, honestly 

Edited April 22 by Dr Gloom

[Alex 30537]

Mind, it’s not often you see a caricature that’s better looking than the person 

[Dr Gloom 19879]

6 minutes ago, Rayvin said:

 

Honestly I do feel like you think I'm a simpleton in all of this and that I think we can just flick a switch and go back to how things were. I reckon we're 20 or 30 years off rejoining if we ever do.

 

That's not going to change my voting choices though. This country is beyond saving until we go back to it, and so I won't pretend that any meaningful change can come about otherwise. You have faith that Labour can rearrange some deckchairs as the ship sinks and that this will change something for the better, but I don't. So I would argue that there is simply nothing for me to vote for that I believe in. Not after all of Labour's lies and all the principles they've trampled to win.

 

Labour is getting nothing from me until they demonstrate that they are worth me giving them my vote on the basis of the things I care about. They consistently give me the finger with everything they say on this, so that's what I'm giving them back.

I definitely don’t think you’re a simpleton! But why do you need a party to run on a rejoin ticket given you know how long it’s going to take to implement? It’s just political suicide at this point, right?

[Renton 17866]

3 minutes ago, Dr Gloom said:

I definitely don’t think you’re a simpleton! But why do you need a party to run on a rejoin ticket given you know how long it’s going to take to implement? It’s just political suicide at this point, right?

 

Not sure it would be suicide but it would likely reduce their majority. And for what? 

At this stage, all I care about is conservative annihilation. Total annihilation. We can work out what todo afterwards depending on where the peices fall. 

[Dr Gloom 19879]

7 minutes ago, Renton said:

 

Not sure it would be suicide but it would likely reduce their majority. And for what? 

At this stage, all I care about is conservative annihilation. Total annihilation. We can work out what todo afterwards depending on where the peices fall. 

why give them a target? The polls say we’re going to win anyway. Okay, it would signal a direction of travel but I think we’ll see plenty of stuff in labour’s first term which will do that anyway. 

[Renton 17866]

5 minutes ago, Dr Gloom said:

why give them a target? The polls say we’re going to win anyway. Okay, it would signal a direction of travel but I think we’ll see plenty of stuff in labour’s first term which will do that anyway. 

 

Agreed. And the thing is, the worse the hit for the tories, the more Labour can do because their will be fuck all the tory headbangers can do about it with a handfull of MPs and a dying voter base. And movement towards the EU will become more popular with each passing year. 

Is this position politically fair? No its not, its a conserquence of our shit political system. But we are where we are, time for the left leaning parties to benefit for a change. Rejoining the EU is very important to me but of greater concern for me is reform of the electoral system itself.  

[wykikitoon 16798]

[Dazzler 5606]

2 hours ago, Dr Gloom said:

I’m sure lots of people are marching in support of innocent civilians and those marching in solidarity with terrorists aren’t the majority.
 

However, the article is entirely accurate on many levels. You don’t have to spend long looking at the footage from the marches to find images of people waving Hamas and hezbollah flags, or carrying flags with swastikas on them ffs. Or to see clips of people chanting “intafada” or “from the river to sea” - which call for violent revolution and the destruction of the state of of Israel respectively. 
 

None of this is apparently unacceptable but it is a crime to be “openly Jewish” - can’t you see how appalling that is? 

I actually think the opposite of the proposed context is true in that video. The bloke turned up and the copper is effectively saying he can’t control the crowd if they see a bloke in a yarmulke walking through them.

 

If anything, he’s suggesting there are cunts in the crowd who will attack him if he carries on.
 

His wording was absolutely shite, but I genuinely took that he was trying to protect the fella from harm.

[Dr Gloom 19879]

17 minutes ago, Dazzler said:

I actually think the opposite of the proposed context is true in that video. The bloke turned up and the copper is effectively saying he can’t control the crowd if they see a bloke in a yarmulke walking through them.

 

If anything, he’s suggesting there are cunts in the crowd who will attack him if he carries on.
 

His wording was absolutely shite, but I genuinely took that he was trying to protect the fella from harm.

 

you might be right, but he was threatening to arrest the bloke for, in his words, antagonising the protestors because what he was wearing made him visibly jewish.

 

we have to park whatever we think of israel for a moment and call that for what it is. this is supposed to be a free country. i imagine there would be similar uproar if a woman in a burka or a man in in a thobe were threatened with arrest for being visibly islamic, had they turned up at the march against antisemitism

[Renton 17866]

Is the principle really that much different from a full kit wanker Rangers fan turning up for a drink in the Hoops bar in Glasgow, or me in my famous NUFC third party merch patronising the Blandford? 

Yeah, you should have the freedom to do this but the police should probably deter you from doing it. 

For me the exception would be based purely on race. If a black person was at risk of being lynched for instance, then that protest should be dispersed. Maybe the argument is the same here, and pro-palestinian marches should also be disperesed, but I'm not as convinced on fre3edom of speech grounds. 

[Renton 17866]

8 minutes ago, Dr Gloom said:

i imagine there would be similar uproar if a woman in a burka or a man in in a thobe were threatened with arrest for being visibly islamic, had they turned up at the march against antisemitism

 

IYou mean a march supporting Israel which would likely have quite a few islamophobes in it? I agree, same issue, same likely outcome. Advised to stay away. 

I guess it raise more fundamental issues like do the police need to wait for a crime to happen (and possibly a violent crime) before forcibly intervening? I don't know the answer but I reject the premise the police were being anitsemitic in this case. 

[Alex 30537]

I actually think the article has a point but because it’s Julie Burchill, she’s used a shit example (that she’s also needed to lie about), introduced (probably made up) anecdotes, said middle class white women on these marches actively support Hamas and brought the culture war into it. With zero nuance. All the while playing to the equally smug readership of The Spectator. Which should tell you much she really cares about antisemitism relative to her being “controversial”, ie actually predictably dull as fuck and completely unhelpful. 
On the other hand I totally get where Gloom is coming from and antisemitism being relatively acceptable. There has to a recognition (imo) that it can be really difficult and scary to be a British Jewish person in the current climate. Whatever Israel does as a state does not make that remotely ok

Edited April 22 by Alex

[Dr Gloom 19879]

5 minutes ago, Renton said:

 

IYou mean a march supporting Israel which would likely have quite a few islamophobes in it? I agree, same issue, same likely outcome. Advised to stay away. 

I guess it raise more fundamental issues like do the police need to wait for a crime to happen (and possibly a violent crime) before forcibly intervening? I don't know the answer but I reject the premise the police were being anitsemitic in this case. 

 

i can only put my forward my view, as a jew, which is this: the threat of arrest for being "visibly jewish", is antisemitic and the police officer in question warning the bloke that he isn't safe to walk the streets of london is both problematic and concerning. 

 

this is supposed to be a free country but jewish people are afraid to be visibly jewish in the capital  - in fact we're being warned not to be! in what world is this okay? 

 

it's no wonder so many jews are so afraid to join the gaza marches, or to even do anything which might bring attention to their identity at the moment 

 

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-london-68446781

 

 

[Dr Gloom 19879]

2 minutes ago, Alex said:

I actually think the article has a point but became it’s Julie Burchill, she’s used a shit example (that she’s also needed to lie about), introduced (probably made up) anecdotes, said middle class white women on these marches actively support Hamas and brought the culture war into it. With zero nuance. All the while playing to the equally smug readership of The Spectator. Which should tell you much she really cares about antisemitism relative to her being “controversial”, ie actually predictably dull as fuck and completely unhelpful. 
On the other hand I totally get where Gloom is coming from and antisemitism being relatively acceptable. There has to a recognition (imo) that’s it can be really difficult and scary to be a British Jewish person in the current climate. Whatever Israel does as a state does not make that remotely ok

 

thank you, alex. 

[Renton 17866]

6 minutes ago, Alex said:

I actually think the article has a point but because it’s Julie Burchill, she’s used a shit example (that she’s also needed to lie about), introduced (probably made up) anecdotes, said middle class white women on these marches actively support Hamas and brought the culture war into it. With zero nuance. All the while playing to the equally smug readership of The Spectator. Which should tell you much she really cares about antisemitism relative to her being “controversial”, ie actually predictably dull as fuck and completely unhelpful. 
On the other hand I totally get where Gloom is coming from and antisemitism being relatively acceptable. There has to a recognition (imo) that it can be really difficult and scary to be a British Jewish person in the current climate. Whatever Israel does as a state does not make that remotely ok

 

I didn't read the article tbh, I simply refuse to waste any energy on her. Is it more scary to be a British jew in the UK than a muslim? Honestly do not know, though I would say the latter are usually more identifiable but also more numerous and, would it be fair to say, more segregated?  

I really hate the fact that these issues in the ME are affecting our society in this way. 

[Dr Gloom 19879]

7 minutes ago, Renton said:

 

 Is it more scary to be a British jew in the UK than a muslim? 

 

it isn't a competition. i'm sure many muslim people feel threatened by islamophobia too

 

i can't speak for them but what i can say is antisemitic hate crimes are massively on the rise and jewish people are scared to speak for fear of visibly identifying themselves. i feel this fear less than many others because i'm a secular jew and i can walk around london and you wouldn't know i was jewish, but i definitely think twice before engaging in debate about israel with fiends or colleagues. where i live there are many palestinian flags in windows. i would be too afraid about what might happen to put a star of david in mine.

 

i want to see a ceasefire in gaza but i wouldn't go anywhere near the gaza rallies in london either, for obvious reasons. 

 

[Renton 17866]

3 minutes ago, Dr Gloom said:

 

it isn't a competition. i'm sure many muslim people feel threatened by islamophobia too

 

i can't speak for them but what i can say is antisemitic hate crimes are massively on the rise and jewish people are scared to speak for fear of visibly identifying themselves. i feel this fear less than many others because i'm a secular jew and i can walk around london and you wouldn't know i was jewish, but i definitely think twice before engaging in debate about israel with fiends or colleagues. where i live there are many palestinian flags in windows. i would be too afraid about what might happen to put a star of david in mine.

 

i want to see a ceasefire in gaza but i wouldn't go anywhere near the gaza rallies in london either, for obvious reasons. 

 

 

Completely understandible. I'm just trying to gauge whether these ideas society is becoming more anti-semitic are true. From my perspective, which is based on fuck all admittedly, I don't think the large majority of society are anti-semitic, and I still think Judaism is perhaps generally perceived more favourably than Islam. To that end, I am wondering if what we are experiencing is an extension of the Judeo-Islam antipathy playing out in the UK, essentially imported, rather than something more fundamental happening in society, as seems to be implied. I also feel most people can seperate the religious and cultural aspects from the political (zionism). Well, people I know anyway.    

[Meenzer 14109]

I'm always a little perplexed that there are gay people in the more vehement fringes of the pro-Palestine movement - if anyone should be wary of creating an environment in which people don't feel safe on the streets simply for being visibly who they are...  

 

Mind, plenty of "us" holiday in places where we're de facto illegal, so logic isn't always high on the agenda.

[Dazzler 5606]

6 minutes ago, Dr Gloom said:

 

it isn't a competition. i'm sure many muslim people feel threatened by islamophobia too

 

i can't speak for them but what i can say is antisemitic hate crimes are massively on the rise and jewish people are scared to speak for fear of visibly identifying themselves. i feel this fear less than many others because i'm a secular jew and i can walk around london and you wouldn't know i was jewish, but i definitely think twice before engaging in debate about israel with fiends or colleagues. where i live there are many palestinian flags in windows. i would be too afraid about what might happen to put a star of david in mine.

 

i want to see a ceasefire in gaza but i wouldn't go anywhere near the gaza rallies in london either, for obvious reasons. 

 

I guess location is massively important in terms of perception then too, as I can wholeheartedly say I’ve not seen a single Palestinian flag where I live, nor an Israeli one for that matter, and I regularly see ‘visibly Jewish’ people in Tesco doing their shopping with absolutely no issues whatsoever (at least in terms of people harassing them etc, I can’t speak on what it’s been like outside of my own little bubble).

 

The whole thing is fucked, and people should be free to do as they please but since big crowds of people tend to bring the worst out in us so it’s not always possible. 

[Monkeys Fist 38913]

11 minutes ago, Meenzer said:

Mind, plenty of "us" holiday in places where we're de facto illegal, so logic isn't always high on the agenda.

That must add a little frisson to cocktail hour, aye? 

[Renton 17866]

30 minutes ago, Meenzer said:

I'm always a little perplexed that there are gay people in the more vehement fringes of the pro-Palestine movement - if anyone should be wary of creating an environment in which people don't feel safe on the streets simply for being visibly who they are...  

 

Mind, plenty of "us" holiday in places where we're de facto illegal, so logic isn't always high on the agenda.

 

Also the flag colours are fabulous. 

[Dazzler 5606]

43 minutes ago, Meenzer said:

I'm always a little perplexed that there are gay people in the more vehement fringes of the pro-Palestine movement - if anyone should be wary of creating an environment in which people don't feel safe on the streets simply for being visibly who they are...  

 

Mind, plenty of "us" holiday in places where we're de facto illegal, so logic isn't always high on the agenda.

At least you can count on the weather 

[Rayvin 4964]

4 hours ago, Dr Gloom said:

I definitely don’t think you’re a simpleton! But why do you need a party to run on a rejoin ticket given you know how long it’s going to take to implement? It’s just political suicide at this point, right?

 

As I've said before, if everyone voted Labour despite misgivings and unhappiness with certain policies, then Labour would never be motivated to change the way they operate. They would simply stay where they are.

 

Withholding my vote is the only way I can demonstrate to Starmer that his lies were unacceptable, and that he cannot take me for granted. So it's not even about thinking that we can just pop back into the EU at this point, it's that Labour are refusing to tell the truth on how damaging this has been, and that we need to walk it back. Until they do that, I won't vote for them - with the exception of if they push for voting reform. I can justify that vote to myself on the basis that it saves us from this binary nonsense which only serves to entrench stupid policies like Brexit.

 

I'm not expecting I am noticed, or that I achieve anything with this. I simply can't not do it. It would be an erosion of my sense of self, and the values that are important to me. All for what? A vote that is meaningless for a party that won't notice either way, and will win without me. I'm better off preserving my sense of self since at least that is an impact I can feel.

 

If you need this to make more sense in a pragmatic way than it does, my partner is European and we are struggling to find a way for her to be here, meaning that much of my life involves being separated from someone I care about. Now, I would have taken this stance anyway I like to think, but that specific reality does rather underline it. Labour have nothing to offer me that will make that any better. They just continue to spit in my face to placate fucking morons. I have no respect for that, and I won't vote for what I don't respect.

[Dr Gloom 19879]

1 hour ago, Meenzer said:

I'm always a little perplexed that there are gay people in the more vehement fringes of the pro-Palestine movement - if anyone should be wary of creating an environment in which people don't feel safe on the streets simply for being visibly who they are...  

 

Mind, plenty of "us" holiday in places where we're de facto illegal, so logic isn't always high on the agenda.

 

it's a broad church - people holding "queers for gaza" signs marching alongside others wearing hamas headbands 

[Dr Gloom 19879]

20 minutes ago, Rayvin said:

 

As I've said before, if everyone voted Labour despite misgivings and unhappiness with certain policies, then Labour would never be motivated to change the way they operate. They would simply stay where they are.

 

Withholding my vote is the only way I can demonstrate to Starmer that his lies were unacceptable, and that he cannot take me for granted. So it's not even about thinking that we can just pop back into the EU at this point, it's that Labour are refusing to tell the truth on how damaging this has been, and that we need to walk it back. Until they do that, I won't vote for them - with the exception of if they push for voting reform. I can justify that vote to myself on the basis that it saves us from this binary nonsense which only serves to entrench stupid policies like Brexit.

 

I'm not expecting I am noticed, or that I achieve anything with this. I simply can't not do it. It would be an erosion of my sense of self, and the values that are important to me. All for what? A vote that is meaningless for a party that won't notice either way, and will win without me. I'm better off preserving my sense of self since at least that is an impact I can feel.

 

If you need this to make more sense in a pragmatic way than it does, my partner is European and we are struggling to find a way for her to be here, meaning that much of my life involves being separated from someone I care about. Now, I would have taken this stance anyway I like to think, but that specific reality does rather underline it. Labour have nothing to offer me that will make that any better. They just continue to spit in my face to placate fucking morons. I have no respect for that, and I won't vote for what I don't respect.

 

i admire your commitment to your own values. i too jumped ship and voted green for a couple of elections after we invaded iraq. not that it made any difference to anything, i live in such a safe labour seat.