Rayvin 4964 Posted October 5, 2016 Share Posted October 5, 2016 Also I'm 30 ffs. I'm not THAT young. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Park Life 70 Posted October 5, 2016 Share Posted October 5, 2016 I don't see how you can defend their constant scheming against Corbyn who has a massive grass roots mandate. They'd be better off in the Lib Dems....Oh wait... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Renton 17869 Posted October 5, 2016 Share Posted October 5, 2016 If Corbyn did that we'd be in exactly the same situation as we've been in for the last decade iyam, two parties trying to claim the centre ground. Let's face it, it's not worked for millions of people and went some way to causing Brexit. It worked better than being left to the mercy of Thatcher in the 1980s though. It s like people can't remember how utterly shit that time was up here. History repeats itself. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rayvin 4964 Posted October 5, 2016 Share Posted October 5, 2016 Do you even know a single member of the PLP? To call them scum is way off the mark in 90% of cases. They just don't want the labour party to become an irrelevant talking shop for disenfranchised studentss, Islington trots, and anarchist infiltrators. Â Anyway, this has been done to death, quite amused by Rayin's assertion that being in power is bad for the conservatives though. Â Only if they do what you say they will do - i.e. promise the earth and give nothing. If the move to the centre and actually deal in centreground politics, then my point is that they're just as good as New Labour. If they feign moving to the centre to win votes, it'll only increase disillusionment with them as a political force. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Renton 17869 Posted October 5, 2016 Share Posted October 5, 2016 I don't see how you can defend their constant scheming against Corbyn who has a massive grass roots mandate. They'd be better off in the Lib Dems....Oh wait... Corbyn has been just as duplicitous. The grass roots as you call them are just people throwing a couple if quid into the can to get their man in. It'll be interesting to see how many get their hands dirty and what the end result will be. Labour annihilation is my prediction. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Renton 17869 Posted October 5, 2016 Share Posted October 5, 2016 Only if they do what you say they will do - i.e. promise the earth and give nothing. If the move to the centre and actually deal in centreground politics, then my point is that they're just as good as New Labour. If they feign moving to the centre to win votes, it'll only increase disillusionment with them as a political force. By which time they'll have been in power 15 years. That's political success. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rayvin 4964 Posted October 5, 2016 Share Posted October 5, 2016 By which time they'll have been in power 15 years. That's political success. Â Er, ok sure - but so what? If they get thrown out and we get a party that changes the system, gives us PR, ensures that they can never come back in the way they have here - then so be it, in my book. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alex 30537 Posted October 5, 2016 Share Posted October 5, 2016 Er, ok sure - but so what? If they get thrown out and we get a party that changes the system, gives us PR, ensures that they can never come back in the way they have here - then so be it, in my book. If and when Labour get in with a majority I don't think they're any more likely to grant PR than the Conservatives are, unfortunately. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Park Life 70 Posted October 5, 2016 Share Posted October 5, 2016 Corbyn has been just as duplicitous. The grass roots as you call them are just people throwing a couple if quid into the can to get their man in. It'll be interesting to see how many get their hands dirty and what the end result will be. Labour annihilation is my prediction. The rise of the far right all across Europe and UKIP in the UK is fertile territory for a left leaning Labour Party. The complaints about mainstream politics are the same. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rayvin 4964 Posted October 5, 2016 Share Posted October 5, 2016 (edited) If and when Labour get in with a majority I don't think they're any more likely to grant PR than the Conservatives are, unfortunately. Â I think my hope isn't necessarily so much for Labour, although I could imagine Corbyn offering that and sticking to it out of principle actually - it's the fact that the Tories are preserving a failing status quo - the longer they preserve it, the harder it must fail... I hope. Looking at the political upheaval across the continent, I don't think it's entirely unrealistic to hope for something seismic here. Â I could be wrong of course, but as I've said to death in the past, given that old new Labour were no more capable of beating the Tories in a GE at present than current New Labour, and have in fact now failed twice, I consider supporting Corbyn as a measured risk. Â To clarify, my hope would be that Corbyn moves the discussion left, as I believe he is doing, and that this gives rise to the forces, one way or another, that bring about meaningful progressive change. Edited October 5, 2016 by Rayvin Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rayvin 4964 Posted October 5, 2016 Share Posted October 5, 2016 The rise of the far right all across Europe and UKIP in the UK is fertile territory for a left leaning Labour Party. The complaints about mainstream politics are the same. Â Fully agree with Parky on this, it's the basis of my thinking too. It may not happen, but it could. Especially in a political climate where things like Brexit are possible. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Renton 17869 Posted October 5, 2016 Share Posted October 5, 2016 Er, ok sure - but so what? If they get thrown out and we get a party that changes the system, gives us PR, ensures that they can never come back in the way they have here - then so be it, in my book. I'll just refrain from comment as I really don't want to sound like an old, cynical, patronising cunt. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rayvin 4964 Posted October 5, 2016 Share Posted October 5, 2016 (edited) Â FFS you guys are really battering my hopeful outlook. Â As a caveat - I think New Labour promised the defeat the Tories forever in their move to the centreground (in reference to your cynicism), but I don't think this is about party politics anymore. That whole system isn't working. I think for me this is more about Neo Liberalism and whether it can survive the current political chaos. Edited October 5, 2016 by Rayvin Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Park Life 70 Posted October 5, 2016 Share Posted October 5, 2016 (edited) The PLP are just offering Tory lite to protect their pathetic careers. The will never win with that but they might save their seats. That's the long and the short of it. The Labour leader might be an addled old fogey that drinks mint tea...So what? A proper alternative to neo-Liberalism and small state politics is going to take time to build. There will come a time when the Labour leader might look like Tom Cruise with the brain of Corbyn. Then all bets will be off. Â Â New Old Labour Phoooar.. Â Edited October 5, 2016 by Park Life Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Renton 17869 Posted October 5, 2016 Share Posted October 5, 2016 Actually tbf that , plus tempering down of some of his more radical policies, is exactly what is needed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alex 30537 Posted October 5, 2016 Share Posted October 5, 2016 Have to say I agree with a lot of what Parky is saying here. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dr Gloom 19879 Posted October 5, 2016 Share Posted October 5, 2016 sadly, so much of politics today is down to personality, charisma and looks. not exactly areas corbyn excels in. Â Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rayvin 4964 Posted October 5, 2016 Share Posted October 5, 2016 Yes but he's the gateway to that. I swear I've made this point before Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Renton 17869 Posted October 5, 2016 Share Posted October 5, 2016 sadly, so much of politics today is down to personality, charisma and looks. not exactly areas corbyn excels in. Also intelligence and ability to think on your feet. And odour possibly. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alex 30537 Posted October 5, 2016 Share Posted October 5, 2016 sadly, so much of politics today is down to personality, charisma and looks. not exactly areas corbyn excels in. Â It's similar I suppose but it's even more down to who the media wants to win. Or rather more about who controls the media. I have issues with Corbyn but I don't think he's been given anything like a fair crack of the whip. If you look at the run up to the last election also, stuff like the defection of Douglas Carswell to UKIP, there was so little made of it it was untrue. That's not a comparison to the internal strife with the PLP but there was more made of Milliband's supposed inability to eat a bacon sandwich. Likewise Cameron sticking his cock in a dead pig's head. A week later it was like that story had never broken. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
adios 717 Posted October 5, 2016 Share Posted October 5, 2016 (edited) Dammit, that makes my entire struggle just sound futile.Don't worry too much. I'm 38 and if anything am moving further left. I think it's called empathy Edited October 5, 2016 by adios Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Christmas Tree 3997 Posted October 5, 2016 Author Share Posted October 5, 2016 Watching Mays speech. Â "A change is gonna come"! Â Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dr Gloom 19879 Posted October 5, 2016 Share Posted October 5, 2016 [tweet] [/tweet] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dr Gloom 19879 Posted October 5, 2016 Share Posted October 5, 2016 Watching Mays speech.  "A change is gonna come"!    she said, ominously Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dr Gloom 19879 Posted October 5, 2016 Share Posted October 5, 2016 the leave vote is "a once in a generation chance to change the direction of our country for good", according to may. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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