Politics

[Christmas Tree 4005]

Has anyone read the basis of his claim that the top 10% of earners will be hit hardest?

 

I know I fall into that category (I consider myself reasonably well paid but in no way rich) and apart from the increase in rail fares I can't see any "direct" effect of the cuts on my income whatsoever.

 

 

Surely your tax is going upto 50% then?

 

No - not by a long way - as I said on the Child benefit thread theres a perception in this country that millions earn good salaries and £44k (Cb threshold) is "middle income" - it isn't - in fact I think that level was the bottom of the top 10%.

 

Not sure then? I thought the talk about the richest 10 % was on the big dosh and that you would fall into what Labour calls "the squeezed middle"

 

This is what Osbourne said to the BBC

 

Osborne told the BBC: "The richest 10% are hit hardest if you take all the measures together, the measures in the budget and the tax rises we are going to implement from the last government, along with the measures in the spending review.""In other words, the entire package to deal with Britain's debt. If you take it all together, then the richest will pay the most," he said.

 

I think in all honesty it will be a long time before the countrys top economist manage to trawl through the detail never mind a toontastic poster. I guess they take things like the extra you will pay through vat etc into their models for working these things out.

 

Having listened to lots of economists over the last 24 hours on the box, its all going to boil down to whether growth continues as predicted or not. My gut feeling is that a lot of people in Britain, like yourself, will feel that it wasnt as bad as expected (which it wasnt) and we will now see the purse strings loosened pre christmas.

[NJS 4040]

Having listened to lots of economists over the last 24 hours on the box, its all going to boil down to whether growth continues as predicted or not. My gut feeling is that a lot of people in Britain, like yourself, will feel that it wasnt as bad as expected (which it wasnt) and we will now see the purse strings loosened pre christmas.

 

Of course they rely on that selfish attitude - I'm not supposed to care about mates who are civil servants or the schools or council facilities I don't use. Shoot me for being brought up correctly but I do.

[Renton 18302]

Having listened to lots of economists over the last 24 hours on the box, its all going to boil down to whether growth continues as predicted or not. My gut feeling is that a lot of people in Britain, like yourself, will feel that it wasnt as bad as expected (which it wasnt) and we will now see the purse strings loosened pre christmas.

 

Of course they rely on that selfish attitude - I'm not supposed to care about mates who are civil servants or the schools or council facilities I don't use. Shoot me for being brought up correctly but I do.

 

I think the most important factor for better paid people is job security, if you are secure in your job this budget may hurt a bit but you'll get by. A different story for lower paid people, people on benefits, and people without job security though. The conservative estimate (pun intended) of job losses is half a million, but in reality it is likely to be double this with the knock on effect with the private sector. This will be concentrated in the North, of course.

 

Of course VAT is yet to come - the most regressive of taxes.

[Christmas Tree 4005]

Having listened to lots of economists over the last 24 hours on the box, its all going to boil down to whether growth continues as predicted or not. My gut feeling is that a lot of people in Britain, like yourself, will feel that it wasnt as bad as expected (which it wasnt) and we will now see the purse strings loosened pre christmas.

 

Of course they rely on that selfish attitude - I'm not supposed to care about mates who are civil servants or the schools or council facilities I don't use. Shoot me for being brought up correctly but I do.

 

??? The point is that for a lot the fear of yesterday didnt materialise and they will start spending, thus boosting growth, thus getting out of this mess as soon as possible and one big final thus, then having the choice to spend money not on deficts but on the real needs of the day be that schools, councils or civil servant mates.

[Renton 18302]

Having listened to lots of economists over the last 24 hours on the box, its all going to boil down to whether growth continues as predicted or not. My gut feeling is that a lot of people in Britain, like yourself, will feel that it wasnt as bad as expected (which it wasnt) and we will now see the purse strings loosened pre christmas.

 

Of course they rely on that selfish attitude - I'm not supposed to care about mates who are civil servants or the schools or council facilities I don't use. Shoot me for being brought up correctly but I do.

 

??? The point is that for a lot the fear of yesterday didnt materialise and they will start spending, thus boosting growth, thus getting out of this mess as soon as possible and one big final thus, then having the choice to spend money not on deficts but on the real needs of the day be that schools, councils or civil servant mates.

 

CT, is this your real prognosis for the NE of England? How confident are you about this?

[NJS 4040]

??? The point is that for a lot the fear of yesterday didnt materialise and they will start spending, thus boosting growth, thus getting out of this mess as soon as possible and one big final thus, then having the choice to spend money not on deficts but on the real needs of the day be that schools, councils or civil servant mates.

 

 

Apart from a fuck off new smartphone, there's nothing I really want or need to buy in the near future

[Christmas Tree 4005]

Having listened to lots of economists over the last 24 hours on the box, its all going to boil down to whether growth continues as predicted or not. My gut feeling is that a lot of people in Britain, like yourself, will feel that it wasnt as bad as expected (which it wasnt) and we will now see the purse strings loosened pre christmas.

 

Of course they rely on that selfish attitude - I'm not supposed to care about mates who are civil servants or the schools or council facilities I don't use. Shoot me for being brought up correctly but I do.

 

I think the most important factor for better paid people is job security, if you are secure in your job this budget may hurt a bit but you'll get by. A different story for lower paid people, people on benefits, and people without job security though. The conservative estimate (pun intended) of job losses is half a million, but in reality it is likely to be double this with the knock on effect with the private sector. This will be concentrated in the North, of course.

 

Of course VAT is yet to come - the most regressive of taxes.

 

Bit out of context.....The actual estimate (independant) is for job growth, year on year for the life of this parliament resulting in 1 million more in employment by the end of the parliament.

[Christmas Tree 4005]

Having listened to lots of economists over the last 24 hours on the box, its all going to boil down to whether growth continues as predicted or not. My gut feeling is that a lot of people in Britain, like yourself, will feel that it wasnt as bad as expected (which it wasnt) and we will now see the purse strings loosened pre christmas.

 

Of course they rely on that selfish attitude - I'm not supposed to care about mates who are civil servants or the schools or council facilities I don't use. Shoot me for being brought up correctly but I do.

 

??? The point is that for a lot the fear of yesterday didnt materialise and they will start spending, thus boosting growth, thus getting out of this mess as soon as possible and one big final thus, then having the choice to spend money not on deficts but on the real needs of the day be that schools, councils or civil servant mates.

 

CT, is this your real prognosis for the NE of England? How confident are you about this?

 

Which bit, that the tories will pay off the deficit allowing more of the tax payers money being spent on things that matter?

 

That the cuts were not as bad as feared?

 

Or that people who were cautious about spending while awaiting yesterdays announcement will now feel a bit more inclined to do so?

 

As revealed by most commentators yesterday, these cuts will take us back to 2007 levels, not the thatcher 80 years that you seem to scaremonger about. The North East wont be a wasteland, seriously.

 

Try and be sensible in your reply, please rather than just trying to score a few points over opinion.

[Christmas Tree 4005]

??? The point is that for a lot the fear of yesterday didnt materialise and they will start spending, thus boosting growth, thus getting out of this mess as soon as possible and one big final thus, then having the choice to spend money not on deficts but on the real needs of the day be that schools, councils or civil servant mates.

 

 

Apart from a fuck off new smartphone, there's nothing I really want or need to buy in the near future

 

Smartphones a start. Good on you Just watch the materialistic thread take off

[Renton 18302]

Having listened to lots of economists over the last 24 hours on the box, its all going to boil down to whether growth continues as predicted or not. My gut feeling is that a lot of people in Britain, like yourself, will feel that it wasnt as bad as expected (which it wasnt) and we will now see the purse strings loosened pre christmas.

 

Of course they rely on that selfish attitude - I'm not supposed to care about mates who are civil servants or the schools or council facilities I don't use. Shoot me for being brought up correctly but I do.

 

??? The point is that for a lot the fear of yesterday didnt materialise and they will start spending, thus boosting growth, thus getting out of this mess as soon as possible and one big final thus, then having the choice to spend money not on deficts but on the real needs of the day be that schools, councils or civil servant mates.

 

CT, is this your real prognosis for the NE of England? How confident are you about this?

 

Which bit, that the tories will pay off the deficit allowing more of the tax payers money being spent on things that matter?

 

That the cuts were not as bad as feared?

 

Or that people who were cautious about spending while awaiting yesterdays announcement will now feel a bit more inclined to do so?

 

As revealed by most commentators yesterday, these cuts will take us back to 2007 levels, not the thatcher 80 years that you seem to scaremonger about. The North East wont be a wasteland, seriously.

 

Try and be sensible in your reply, please rather than just trying to score a few points over opinion.

 

How confident are you that there won't be a regional recession, even if there isn't a national one? Given our demographics and reliance on public sector jobs, that is. What private sector jobs are going to come in to replace the gap?

 

Honestly, not being partisan here, but I think the future for this region is quite frightening. Already if you walk through Eldon square half the shops are boarded up, and this is one of the few prosperous shopping areas (as for Shields etc...). For the record I think there would have been really hard times ahead with Labour as well, in fact we know that, I just don't see the need to cut the deficit this quickly and it could still easily backfire - obviously I hope it works as advertised though. Btw, although I haven't looked in great detail, I have to say some parts of the budget look sensible, it's not all bad, but I can't agree with you that it is compassionate. This is going to really hurt low paid people and people out of work through no fault of their own.

[Christmas Tree 4005]

Having listened to lots of economists over the last 24 hours on the box, its all going to boil down to whether growth continues as predicted or not. My gut feeling is that a lot of people in Britain, like yourself, will feel that it wasnt as bad as expected (which it wasnt) and we will now see the purse strings loosened pre christmas.

 

Of course they rely on that selfish attitude - I'm not supposed to care about mates who are civil servants or the schools or council facilities I don't use. Shoot me for being brought up correctly but I do.

 

??? The point is that for a lot the fear of yesterday didnt materialise and they will start spending, thus boosting growth, thus getting out of this mess as soon as possible and one big final thus, then having the choice to spend money not on deficts but on the real needs of the day be that schools, councils or civil servant mates.

 

CT, is this your real prognosis for the NE of England? How confident are you about this?

 

Which bit, that the tories will pay off the deficit allowing more of the tax payers money being spent on things that matter?

 

That the cuts were not as bad as feared?

 

Or that people who were cautious about spending while awaiting yesterdays announcement will now feel a bit more inclined to do so?

 

As revealed by most commentators yesterday, these cuts will take us back to 2007 levels, not the thatcher 80 years that you seem to scaremonger about. The North East wont be a wasteland, seriously.

 

Try and be sensible in your reply, please rather than just trying to score a few points over opinion.

 

How confident are you that there won't be a regional recession, even if there isn't a national one? Given our demographics and reliance on public sector jobs, that is. What private sector jobs are going to come in to replace the gap?

 

Honestly, not being partisan here, but I think the future for this region is quite frightening. Already if you walk through Eldon square half the shops are boarded up, and this is one of the few prosperous shopping areas (as for Shields etc...). For the record I think there would have been really hard times ahead with Labour as well, in fact we know that, I just don't see the need to cut the deficit this quickly and it could still easily backfire - obviously I hope it works as advertised though. Btw, although I haven't looked in great detail, I have to say some parts of the budget look sensible, it's not all bad, but I can't agree with you that it is compassionate. This is going to really hurt low paid people and people out of work through no fault of their own.

 

Now we are getting into opions and ideaology which we will not agree on.

 

My confidence for the economy has risen following the budget for reasons I have already stated.

The official independant forecasts for the economy show growth.

The official independant forecasts for the employment shows growth

The cuts are nowhere near as bad as expected.

While pain was never avoidable (imo), I think the cuts are well thought through.

 

With regard to Eldon square etc that is the world we are now living in. Everybody hashad to reign in their spending for several years now and we are no longer maxing credit cards, getting cheap loans and re-mortgaging houses to spend on luxuries. Not a bad thing really for a decent society.

 

You are right that we would have had similar cuts under Labour. They claim they wouldnt have been as bad but could you really have seen a weaker Labour government being anywhere near as bold in reforms as the coalition have been? They would have left welfare for another day / government meaning that departments would probably have been hit just as hard. Infact Darlings plans in March were for 20% cuts. I also think the public like the idea of the pain being out of the way in 4 years rather than over a longer period that would happen under Labours current plans.

 

I promise this is not Partisan, but I also dont think Labour still have the skill set to have run this government. Thats not a dig just a fact that Partys in power use up the best people as they dwindle and imo it takes a period of opposition to clear out the dreggs and give the new people chance to find their way. Can you really imagine a current Labour government with all these problems to sort out, the best people used up and a continuation of infighting, this time with the Millibands both after Gordons job.

 

I dont think I described the budget as compassionate, more Cameron as a compassionate conservative. (have to check). My man love for Cameron knows no limits and I think he is a million miles away from the "nasty tories".

 

And nobody wants job losses whoever they are.

Edited October 21, 2010 by Christmas Tree

[NJS 4040]

Honestly, not being partisan here, but I think the future for this region is quite frightening. Already if you walk through Eldon square half the shops are boarded up, and this is one of the few prosperous shopping areas (as for Shields etc...). For the record I think there would have been really hard times ahead with Labour as well, in fact we know that, I just don't see the need to cut the deficit this quickly and it could still easily backfire - obviously I hope it works as advertised though. Btw, although I haven't looked in great detail, I have to say some parts of the budget look sensible, it's not all bad, but I can't agree with you that it is compassionate. This is going to really hurt low paid people and people out of work through no fault of their own.

 

I admit to gritting my teeth and saying "sounds good" to a few points.

 

 

One of the scenarios I can see is the plan "working" and then huge tax cuts being made either before of after the next election. I think if that happens it will cause a huge property bubble - again.

[Rob W 0]

how COULD you be so cynical??

[Christmas Tree 4005]

Honestly, not being partisan here, but I think the future for this region is quite frightening. Already if you walk through Eldon square half the shops are boarded up, and this is one of the few prosperous shopping areas (as for Shields etc...). For the record I think there would have been really hard times ahead with Labour as well, in fact we know that, I just don't see the need to cut the deficit this quickly and it could still easily backfire - obviously I hope it works as advertised though. Btw, although I haven't looked in great detail, I have to say some parts of the budget look sensible, it's not all bad, but I can't agree with you that it is compassionate. This is going to really hurt low paid people and people out of work through no fault of their own.

 

I admit to gritting my teeth and saying "sounds good" to a few points.

 

 

One of the scenarios I can see is the plan "working" and then huge tax cuts being made either before of after the next election. I think if that happens it will cause a huge property bubble - again.

 

Everything comes in cycles ofcourse, but I simply cant see a repeat of the last housing boom happening in my lifetime. Its hard to imagine a mortgage lending scenario where banks are throwing mortgages at people who have no deposit and cant afford them.

[NJS 4040]

Everything comes in cycles ofcourse, but I simply cant see a repeat of the last housing boom happening in my lifetime. Its hard to imagine a mortgage lending scenario where banks are throwing mortgages at people who have no deposit and cant afford them.

 

I meant people with suddenly increased disposable income through tax cuts and/or who can afford it expanding the buy-to-let market. This will be particularly lucrative given their policy of moving social housing to market rents.

 

A cynic would suggest a connection.

[Christmas Tree 4005]

Everything comes in cycles ofcourse, but I simply cant see a repeat of the last housing boom happening in my lifetime. Its hard to imagine a mortgage lending scenario where banks are throwing mortgages at people who have no deposit and cant afford them.

 

I meant people with suddenly increased disposable income through tax cuts and/or who can afford it expanding the buy-to-let market. This will be particularly lucrative given their policy of moving social housing to market rents.

 

A cynic would suggest a connection.

 

Thats been on the cards since council houses got sold off and governments virtually ceased building them.

 

Even though I know the tories announced a council house building programme yesterday far outweighing anything Labour have undertaken the buy to let market will continue to grow.

 

While details are sketchy, Im all in favour of people who can afford to, paying more realistic rents which might propell some families from council stock into the private sector, therefore freeing up the council stock for those who really need it.

 

A council house will therefore be a benefit for those who need rather than a tax payer gift for those who dont.

 

Again I see this as one of those big areas that needs tackling rather than plodding along with the status quo.

 

I really think these are very interesting times, politically.

[Christmas Tree 4005]

9 hours to go .......

 

 

And the beed are clearly out to give the government a good kicking over the world service affair.

 

Edit..... and its from Middlesbrough, the town said to be hit hardest by the cuts

 

Brave Tory who turns up tonight

Edited October 21, 2010 by Christmas Tree

[Tooj 17]

My guess is this has already been posted several times. Either way I think it's a cracking article.

 

http://www.independent.co.uk/opinion/comme...in-2112069.html

 

Margaret Thatcher is lying sick in a private hospital bed in Belgravia but her political children have just pushed her agenda further and harder and deeper than she ever dreamed of. When was the last time Britain's public spending was slashed by more than 20 per cent? Not in my mother's lifetime. Not even in my grandmother's lifetime. No, it was in 1918, when a Conservative-Liberal coalition said the best response to a global economic crisis was to rapidly pay off this country's debts. The result? Unemployment soared from 6 per cent to 19 per cent, and the country's economy collapsed so severely that they lost all ability to pay their bills and the debt actually rose from 114 per cent to 180 per cent. "History doesn't repeat itself," Mark Twain said, "but it does rhyme."

 

George Osborne has just gambled your future on an extreme economic theory that has failed whenever and wherever it has been tried. In the Great Depression, we learned some basic principles. When an economy falters, ordinary people – perfectly sensibly – cut back their spending and try to pay down their debts. This causes a further fall in demand, and makes the economy worse. If the government cuts back at the same time, then there is no demand at all, and the economy goes into freefall. That's why virtually every country in the world reacted to the Great Crash of 2008 – caused entirely by deregulated bankers – by increasing spending, funded by temporary debt. Better a deficit we repay in the good times than an endless depression. The countries that stimulated hardest, like South Korea, came out of recession first.

 

David Cameron and George Osborne have ignored all this. They have ignored the warnings of the Financial Times, the newspaper most critical of their strategy. They have dismissed the warnings of Nobel economics laureates like Paul Krugman and Joseph Stiglitz, who have consistently been proved right in this crisis. They have refused to learn from the fact that the country they held up as a model for how to deal with a recession – "Look and learn from across the Irish Sea," Osborne said – has suffered the worst collapse in the developed world. They have instead blindly obeyed the ideological precepts they learned as baby Thatcherites: slash the state, and make the poor pay most.

 

Osborne galloped through his Comprehensive Spending Review (CSR) speech, failing to name almost any of the services that will be slashed or shut down. It's revealing that he doesn't want to name them while the nation is watching.

 

But beneath the statistics, there was a swathe of human tragedies that will now unnecessarily unfold across Britain. PriceWaterhouseCooper – nobody's idea of a Trotskyite cell – says that a million people will now lose their jobs as a direct result. My father lost his job at the height of the last Tory recession, and had to leave the country to get another one. I remember how that felt. I remember what that did to my family.

 

Now it's going to happen to a million more families and probably more. For the private sector to get all these people into work, as Osborne claims, there would have to be the most rapid business growth in my lifetime. Does anyone think that will happen? Osborne has chosen the weakest people to take the worst cuts. The poorest 16-year-olds were given £30 a week to stay on in education, so they could afford to study – until Osborne's team dismissed it as a "bribe" and shut it down. The frailest old people depend on council services to wash them and feed them – yet Osborne just slashed their budget by 30 per cent, which service providers say will mean more pensioners being left to die in their own filth. Every family living on benefits is set to lose an average of £1,000 a year – which, as I've seen from living in the East End of London, will mean many poor kids across Britain never getting a birthday party, or a trip to the seaside, or a bed of their own, or a winter coat. This isn't just On Yer Bike, it's On Yer Own.

 

The irrationality of this approach is perhaps plainest when you look at housing. We badly need more affordable housing in Britain. Some 4.5 million people are stuck on waiting lists, and the average age of a homebuyer is now 37. It's a cause of constant stress to the real middle class and despair for the poor. By a happy coincidence, house-building is one of the best stimulators of the economy: it employs a lot of people on average wages, who then spend their money quickly in a "multiplier" effect.

 

Yet Osborne has chosen the opposite. There will be on average one new home built per week in the whole of London and the south-east. That's one. Indeed, instead of building homes, he's driving people out of them. By slashing housing benefit, London councils alone say 83,000 people here are going to be forced to leave their homes, with 1.3 million ending up in more debt. Cameron has revealed that his baby daughter sleeps in a cardboard box decorated for her by her big sister. Thanks to him, a lot more people are going to be sleeping in cardboard boxes soon.

 

It can't be coincidental that this is being done to us by three men – Cameron, Osborne, and Nick Clegg – who have never worried about a bill in their lives. On a basic level, they do not understand the effects of these decisions on real people. Remember, Cameron said before the election: "The papers keep writing that [my wife, Samantha] comes from a very blue-blooded background", but "she is actually very unconventional. She went to a day school." Osborne is a beneficiary of a £4m trust fund he did nothing whatsoever to earn and which is stashed offshore to avoid tax. Clegg actually thought the state pension was £30 a week, a level that would kill pensioners.

 

These attitudes have real consequences. We're not in this together. Who isn't in it with us? Them, their friends, and their families. They were asked to pay nothing more in this CSR. On the contrary: they are being let off left, right and centre. To pluck a random example, one of the richest corporations in Britain, Vodafone, had an outstanding tax bill of £6bn – but Osborne simply cancelled it this year. If he had made them pay, he could have prevented nearly all the cuts to all the welfare recipients in Britain. You try refusing to pay your taxes next time, and see if George Osborne shows the same generosity to you as he does to the super-rich.

 

There is one stark symbol of how unjust the response to this economic disaster caused by bankers is. They have just paid themselves £7bn in bonuses – much of it our money – to reward themselves for failure. That's the same sum Osborne took from the benefits of the British poor yesterday, who did nothing to cause this crash. And he has the chutzpah to brag about "fairness."

 

Britain just became a colder and crueller country. And for what? To pantingly follow a disproven ideology over a cliff. On the eve of the general election, Cameron told us: "There'll be no cuts to frontline services," "we're not talking about swingeing cuts," and "all cuts will be fair". Is it possible to call him anything but a liar and an ideologue today?

 

You can enjoy a long rest, Baroness Thatcher – your successors have embarked on a mephedrone-charged imitation that exceeds your most fantastical dreams.

[Park Life 71]

This debate isn't about the miners strike, it's about the general shocking malaise the Tories left the manufacturing and industrial base of Britain in. Blitheley going around asserting that 'old industry' would be consigned to history. It isn't what the Germans did and they have a trade surplus and the HIGHEST WAGES IN EUO[PE...Hoe is this possible? Doesn't compute surerly?/

 

 

The Tories modernised the steel industry.

 

The Tories and then Labour chose not to subsidise industry.

 

The Germans chose to subsidise their industry and hold off the inevitable, however now that the subsidies have stopped they are closing all their coal mines.

 

Industry, on the hole has gone East and no British government has tried or could change that situation.

 

What part of "only European country in surplus" don't you understand?

 

 

You started the argument about the 80's ffs and now you've whizzed through to the present day

 

One argument at a time surely

 

The laid the groundwork in the 80's when your lot were busy dismantling Britain and selling out the workforce and selling off assets. Thought you were the one giving out history lessons. Really this is playschool stuff for me.

[Holden McGroin 5150]

Good article that 2J.

 

Of course you wont get the contrary CT agreeing with it.

[Christmas Tree 4005]

This debate isn't about the miners strike, it's about the general shocking malaise the Tories left the manufacturing and industrial base of Britain in. Blitheley going around asserting that 'old industry' would be consigned to history. It isn't what the Germans did and they have a trade surplus and the HIGHEST WAGES IN EUO[PE...Hoe is this possible? Doesn't compute surerly?/

 

 

The Tories modernised the steel industry.

 

The Tories and then Labour chose not to subsidise industry.

 

The Germans chose to subsidise their industry and hold off the inevitable, however now that the subsidies have stopped they are closing all their coal mines.

 

Industry, on the hole has gone East and no British government has tried or could change that situation.

 

What part of "only European country in surplus" don't you understand?

 

 

You started the argument about the 80's ffs and now you've whizzed through to the present day

 

One argument at a time surely

 

The laid the groundwork in the 80's when your lot were busy dismantling Britain and selling out the workforce and selling off assets. Thought you were the one giving out history lessons. Really this is playschool stuff for me.

 

Best stick to your crop circles

[Park Life 71]

This debate isn't about the miners strike, it's about the general shocking malaise the Tories left the manufacturing and industrial base of Britain in. Blitheley going around asserting that 'old industry' would be consigned to history. It isn't what the Germans did and they have a trade surplus and the HIGHEST WAGES IN EUO[PE...Hoe is this possible? Doesn't compute surerly?/

 

 

The Tories modernised the steel industry.

 

The Tories and then Labour chose not to subsidise industry.

 

The Germans chose to subsidise their industry and hold off the inevitable, however now that the subsidies have stopped they are closing all their coal mines.

 

Industry, on the hole has gone East and no British government has tried or could change that situation.

 

What part of "only European country in surplus" don't you understand?

 

 

You started the argument about the 80's ffs and now you've whizzed through to the present day

 

One argument at a time surely

 

The laid the groundwork in the 80's when your lot were busy dismantling Britain and selling out the workforce and selling off assets. Thought you were the one giving out history lessons. Really this is playschool stuff for me.

 

Best stick to your crop circles

 

Think I'll continue making you look a muppet in here thanks.

[Christmas Tree 4005]

This debate isn't about the miners strike, it's about the general shocking malaise the Tories left the manufacturing and industrial base of Britain in. Blitheley going around asserting that 'old industry' would be consigned to history. It isn't what the Germans did and they have a trade surplus and the HIGHEST WAGES IN EUO[PE...Hoe is this possible? Doesn't compute surerly?/

 

 

The Tories modernised the steel industry.

 

The Tories and then Labour chose not to subsidise industry.

 

The Germans chose to subsidise their industry and hold off the inevitable, however now that the subsidies have stopped they are closing all their coal mines.

 

Industry, on the hole has gone East and no British government has tried or could change that situation.

 

What part of "only European country in surplus" don't you understand?

 

 

You started the argument about the 80's ffs and now you've whizzed through to the present day

 

One argument at a time surely

 

The laid the groundwork in the 80's when your lot were busy dismantling Britain and selling out the workforce and selling off assets. Thought you were the one giving out history lessons. Really this is playschool stuff for me.

 

Best stick to your crop circles

 

Think I'll continue making you look a muppet in here thanks.

 

Better try harder then.

[Papa Lazaru 0]

My guess is this has already been posted several times. Either way I think it's a cracking article.

 

http://www.independent.co.uk/opinion/comme...in-2112069.html

 

Margaret Thatcher is lying sick in a private hospital bed in Belgravia but her political children have just pushed her agenda further and harder and deeper than she ever dreamed of. When was the last time Britain's public spending was slashed by more than 20 per cent? Not in my mother's lifetime. Not even in my grandmother's lifetime. No, it was in 1918, when a Conservative-Liberal coalition said the best response to a global economic crisis was to rapidly pay off this country's debts. The result? Unemployment soared from 6 per cent to 19 per cent, and the country's economy collapsed so severely that they lost all ability to pay their bills and the debt actually rose from 114 per cent to 180 per cent. "History doesn't repeat itself," Mark Twain said, "but it does rhyme."

 

George Osborne has just gambled your future on an extreme economic theory that has failed whenever and wherever it has been tried. In the Great Depression, we learned some basic principles. When an economy falters, ordinary people – perfectly sensibly – cut back their spending and try to pay down their debts. This causes a further fall in demand, and makes the economy worse. If the government cuts back at the same time, then there is no demand at all, and the economy goes into freefall. That's why virtually every country in the world reacted to the Great Crash of 2008 – caused entirely by deregulated bankers – by increasing spending, funded by temporary debt. Better a deficit we repay in the good times than an endless depression. The countries that stimulated hardest, like South Korea, came out of recession first.

 

David Cameron and George Osborne have ignored all this. They have ignored the warnings of the Financial Times, the newspaper most critical of their strategy. They have dismissed the warnings of Nobel economics laureates like Paul Krugman and Joseph Stiglitz, who have consistently been proved right in this crisis. They have refused to learn from the fact that the country they held up as a model for how to deal with a recession – "Look and learn from across the Irish Sea," Osborne said – has suffered the worst collapse in the developed world. They have instead blindly obeyed the ideological precepts they learned as baby Thatcherites: slash the state, and make the poor pay most.

 

Osborne galloped through his Comprehensive Spending Review (CSR) speech, failing to name almost any of the services that will be slashed or shut down. It's revealing that he doesn't want to name them while the nation is watching.

 

But beneath the statistics, there was a swathe of human tragedies that will now unnecessarily unfold across Britain. PriceWaterhouseCooper – nobody's idea of a Trotskyite cell – says that a million people will now lose their jobs as a direct result. My father lost his job at the height of the last Tory recession, and had to leave the country to get another one. I remember how that felt. I remember what that did to my family.

 

Now it's going to happen to a million more families and probably more. For the private sector to get all these people into work, as Osborne claims, there would have to be the most rapid business growth in my lifetime. Does anyone think that will happen? Osborne has chosen the weakest people to take the worst cuts. The poorest 16-year-olds were given £30 a week to stay on in education, so they could afford to study – until Osborne's team dismissed it as a "bribe" and shut it down. The frailest old people depend on council services to wash them and feed them – yet Osborne just slashed their budget by 30 per cent, which service providers say will mean more pensioners being left to die in their own filth. Every family living on benefits is set to lose an average of £1,000 a year – which, as I've seen from living in the East End of London, will mean many poor kids across Britain never getting a birthday party, or a trip to the seaside, or a bed of their own, or a winter coat. This isn't just On Yer Bike, it's On Yer Own.

 

The irrationality of this approach is perhaps plainest when you look at housing. We badly need more affordable housing in Britain. Some 4.5 million people are stuck on waiting lists, and the average age of a homebuyer is now 37. It's a cause of constant stress to the real middle class and despair for the poor. By a happy coincidence, house-building is one of the best stimulators of the economy: it employs a lot of people on average wages, who then spend their money quickly in a "multiplier" effect.

 

Yet Osborne has chosen the opposite. There will be on average one new home built per week in the whole of London and the south-east. That's one. Indeed, instead of building homes, he's driving people out of them. By slashing housing benefit, London councils alone say 83,000 people here are going to be forced to leave their homes, with 1.3 million ending up in more debt. Cameron has revealed that his baby daughter sleeps in a cardboard box decorated for her by her big sister. Thanks to him, a lot more people are going to be sleeping in cardboard boxes soon.

 

It can't be coincidental that this is being done to us by three men – Cameron, Osborne, and Nick Clegg – who have never worried about a bill in their lives. On a basic level, they do not understand the effects of these decisions on real people. Remember, Cameron said before the election: "The papers keep writing that [my wife, Samantha] comes from a very blue-blooded background", but "she is actually very unconventional. She went to a day school." Osborne is a beneficiary of a £4m trust fund he did nothing whatsoever to earn and which is stashed offshore to avoid tax. Clegg actually thought the state pension was £30 a week, a level that would kill pensioners.

 

These attitudes have real consequences. We're not in this together. Who isn't in it with us? Them, their friends, and their families. They were asked to pay nothing more in this CSR. On the contrary: they are being let off left, right and centre. To pluck a random example, one of the richest corporations in Britain, Vodafone, had an outstanding tax bill of £6bn – but Osborne simply cancelled it this year. If he had made them pay, he could have prevented nearly all the cuts to all the welfare recipients in Britain. You try refusing to pay your taxes next time, and see if George Osborne shows the same generosity to you as he does to the super-rich.

 

There is one stark symbol of how unjust the response to this economic disaster caused by bankers is. They have just paid themselves £7bn in bonuses – much of it our money – to reward themselves for failure. That's the same sum Osborne took from the benefits of the British poor yesterday, who did nothing to cause this crash. And he has the chutzpah to brag about "fairness."

 

Britain just became a colder and crueller country. And for what? To pantingly follow a disproven ideology over a cliff. On the eve of the general election, Cameron told us: "There'll be no cuts to frontline services," "we're not talking about swingeing cuts," and "all cuts will be fair". Is it possible to call him anything but a liar and an ideologue today?

 

You can enjoy a long rest, Baroness Thatcher – your successors have embarked on a mephedrone-charged imitation that exceeds your most fantastical dreams.

 

Just keep posting this until people like CT get it, doubt it'll sink in though, makes far too much sense.

[Kevin S. Assilleekunt 1]

 

Shocking.