Politics

[TheGingerQuiff 2412]

5 minutes ago, Rayvin said:

 

You're only looking at this from one side. If Labour -do- play to that audience, they also won't get elected. Because they will lose people who would find such nonsense repulsive.

 

They're losing voters to the Tories, sure, but they're also losing them to the Greens and LDs. They're failing on both sides.

 

What would you do then? 

[Rayvin 4964]

26 minutes ago, TheGingerQuiff said:

Immigration didn't affect me personally I just witnessed what was happening in the sector I was working and I witnessed the frustration it was causing. And I agree brexit wasn't the answer I just accept that it was a result of people's concerns being dismissed. The Labour voters that the tories have nicked are the brexit voters though. Not sure what you're asking me here, never denied that there wasn't a chunk of middle class brexiteer. 

 

Immigration has negatively affected certain groups in society, absolutely no doubt about that. I remember speaking to taxi drivers about this from time to time (ironically), and they would tell me that immigration had pushed their wages down. Of course, once you dug in a bit more, it turned out that what had actually done it was the greater use of GPS and the council taking away the 'local area familiarity' tests, thus removing the barrier for entry for immigrants to take up taxi work. The taxi companies themselves naturally hired ever increasing numbers of drivers because it kept their costs down and ensured greater service availability.

 

For me though, in that scenario, it's not the immigrants who are the problem. It's the local government policy to water down specialism, and the hiring firms who don't give a shit about their workers. Of course, as far as the taxi driver is concerned, stopping one of these is as good as stopping any. Although in reality, it'll still happen anyway because the UK still takes large immigration influxes from around the world, because it's in the interests of the rich to keep labour costs down. Brexit or not, their situation won't change.

 

From a social standpoint, I really do think integration in this country for incoming immigrants has been an utter shambles. The point of bringing people into this country isn't to bundle them all together in specific areas so that you effectively have multiple different cultures living side by side in an uneasy standoff, it should be to bring people together so that cultures happily co-exist and can be shared with common bonds reinforced. We have failed at this, 100%. Because there's no votes in it, I would argue.

 

Having said all of this, when Renton pulls out stats and research to highlight the positive good that immigration has brought about in this country, that is 100% unarguable unless someone has similar detailed research to the contrary. This is a level of debate that your average guy on the street rejects because he can't win it. He's all about his anecdotal evidence of things he thinks he has seen - ignoring the fact that he only sees what he wants to see (as do we all). But for anyone who does read and follow the stats, I mean what are we meant to do? Look at them and go "well, this here is well researched and ultimately is just the truth, but we can't really say it is because it will hurt the feelings of the working class man in the street"?

Edited May 8, 2021 by Rayvin

[Renton 17811]

18 minutes ago, TheGingerQuiff said:

Immigration didn't affect me personally I just witnessed what was happening in the sector I was working and I witnessed the frustration it was causing. And I agree brexit wasn't the answer I just accept that it was a result of people's concerns being dismissed. The Labour voters that the tories have nicked are the brexit voters though. Not sure what you're asking me here, never denied that there wasn't a chunk of middle class brexiteer. 

But if only 1% of the population are European immigrants and only a minority are men of working age in manual jobs, it's not a significant problem is it? Using immigrants as scape goats is an established trick of the far right to manipulate the masses. What I don't get is we are swapping Europeans for Indians now, and immigration is higher than ever. How do the tories get away with this? 

[Rayvin 4964]

2 minutes ago, TheGingerQuiff said:

 

What would you do then? 

 

I would stick to the base they've got, stop pandering ineffectively to a group that aren't remotely interested in listening, accept that we're not going to be in power for another 5-10 years, and start working on cross party electoral efforts with the sole focus of getting one win to bring about PR.

 

But I don't think there's much to be done at all, frankly. This is just where we are.

[Alex 30440]

It would be interesting to see what happened if Labour, the Lib Dem’s and the Greens got together on a PR / progressive ticket where they didn’t stand against each other. They probably wouldn’t even need whichever tawdry set of shitehawks Farage is championing. But I think it would need at least one more shoeing in a general election for Labour to even contemplate it. 

[Alex 30440]

3 minutes ago, Renton said:

But if only 1% of the population are European immigrants and only a minority are men of working age in manual jobs, it's not a significant problem is it? Using immigrants as scape goats is an established trick of the far right to manipulate the masses. What I don't get is we are swapping Europeans for Indians now, and immigration is higher than ever. How do the tories get away with this? 

I can think of several people I know that get most of their information off Facebook, Twitter, etc. That’s how 

[Renton 17811]

From a personal point of view, I've stopped caring too much. I'm now in a fortunate position where I directly benefit from tory policies. The only member of my family who relied on welfare is now tragically dead. I'm alright Jack. I mean, I fucking loathe the cunts and what they are doing to the country, but if the red wall are going to be so easily fooled, I'm past caring frankly. 

[TheGingerQuiff 2412]

If you're wanting labour to get elected on the back of the majority of the electorate being reasonable, well read and making considered well thought out decisions then you'll be waiting a while. Time to put an arm round the thickies and validate their silly opinions. Proven formula.

[TheGingerQuiff 2412]

They're not the worst tory government like. Johnson is a bit of a needy cunt and I don't think he'll ever turn to austerity. I'd take this lot over May's government every time.

[Rayvin 4964]

1 minute ago, Renton said:

From a personal point of view, I've stopped caring too much. I'm now in a fortunate position where I directly benefit from tory policies. The only member of my family who relied on welfare is now tragically dead. I'm alright Jack. I mean, I fucking loathe the cunts and what they are doing to the country, but if the red wall are going to be so easily fooled, I'm past caring frankly. 

 

This is where I got to as well. But then I also start wondering if this exasperation is actually how you end up being Tory, later in life.

 

"I'm alright Jack" is pretty much the Tory party tagline.

[Rayvin 4964]

2 minutes ago, TheGingerQuiff said:

If you're wanting labour to get elected on the back of the majority of the electorate being reasonable, well read and making considered well thought out decisions then you'll be waiting a while. Time to put an arm round the thickies and validate their silly opinions. Proven formula.

 

Well, this certainly seems to be Starmer's approach - whether he's being effective about it or not, this is completely the position he's taken. It's cost him my vote going forward, and my membership of the party, but in the end maybe it'll be worth it. I doubt it personally, but who knows.

[Renton 17811]

1 minute ago, Rayvin said:

 

This is where I got to as well. But then I also start wondering if this exasperation is actually how you end up being Tory, later in life.

 

"I'm alright Jack" is pretty much the Tory party tagline.

 

No. Why? Because I believe societies with high levels on inequality are shit for everyone. I want Norway, not the USA. That will never change. 

[Rayvin 4964]

1 minute ago, TheGingerQuiff said:

They're not the worst tory government like. Johnson is a bit of a needy cunt and I don't think he'll ever turn to austerity. I'd take this lot over May's government every time.

 

May's government was considerably less corrupt, considerably more professional, and unbelievably, considerably more honest.

 

Johnson is a populist and makes policies and decisions around that point alone. This makes him incredibly weak, reactionary, and devoid of any long term plan. It's a recipe for disaster that will need to be cleaned up by another, more professional and competent government 10-15 years from now, probably with yet another decade or two of austerity.

 

But yes, they're more left wing than the previous ones so we get to see the occasional socialist leaning policy. The problem with it is that these policies do need to be part of an overall plan of reinvigoration and development of the country in general in order for them to work - not random acts of chaos.

[TheGingerQuiff 2412]

May is a cunt. 

[TheGingerQuiff 2412]

And her fucking snoopers charter is about as snidey an act ever committed on the British public

[Rayvin 4964]

Completely agree

 

As an aside, this has been an interesting discussion and I've enjoyed throwing views back and forth a bit - but I'm leaning towards essays again now which no one wants, so I'll step back for it a bit  

[Alex 30440]

11 minutes ago, Renton said:

From a personal point of view, I've stopped caring too much. I'm now in a fortunate position where I directly benefit from tory policies. The only member of my family who relied on welfare is now tragically dead. I'm alright Jack. I mean, I fucking loathe the cunts and what they are doing to the country, but if the red wall are going to be so easily fooled, I'm past caring frankly. 

I arrived at this point a while back tbh. 

[Dr Gloom 19828]

1 hour ago, Renton said:

From a personal point of view, I've stopped caring too much. I'm now in a fortunate position where I directly benefit from tory policies. The only member of my family who relied on welfare is now tragically dead. I'm alright Jack. I mean, I fucking loathe the cunts and what they are doing to the country, but if the red wall are going to be so easily fooled, I'm past caring frankly. 

Aye, same. I would have been massively worse off under a Corbyn government. I keep voting for to help people less fortunate than I am but it turns out they’re not interested in helping themselves and would like to fuck things up for my kids while they’re at it. Fuck em

[PaddockLad 14610]

1 hour ago, TheGingerQuiff said:

And her fucking snoopers charter is about as snidey an act ever committed on the British public

Its not getting anywhere near the Windrush scandal/hostile environment policy her Home Office brought in. 

 

She could’ve had the paltry Brexit “deal” Johnson is lauded for 18 months before he “got it over the line” but she wouldn’t sell the unionists in N.I. down the river. Her successor did though. 

Choosing your favourite Tory is like choosing a favourite turd

[ewerk 26415]

17 minutes ago, PaddockLad said:

She could’ve had the paltry Brexit “deal” Johnson is lauded for 18 months before he “got it over the line” but she wouldn’t sell the unionists in N.I. down the river. Her successor did though. 

Aye, the same unionists who helped sink her deal and brought Johnson over to their party conference and treated him like a king.  

Edited May 8, 2021 by ewerk

[Alex 30440]

34 minutes ago, Dr Gloom said:

Aye, same. I would have been massively worse off under a Corbyn government. I keep voting for to help people less fortunate than I am but it turns out they’re not interested in helping themselves and would like to fuck things up for my kids while they’re at it. Fuck em

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crab_mentality 

[Rayvin 4964]

Rayner sacked from various roles by Starmer...

 

She was meant to be able to speak to the kinds of voters they lost over Hartlepool so maybe this is a sign of change.

 

Not a great look at the moment though considering he has supposedly taken "full responsibility".

[ewerk 26415]

Well he ain’t gonna sack himself. Clearly the campaign didn’t work and maybe Rayner’s strengths don’t lie in campaign strategy. She is due to get another shadow cabinet position so he’s not putting her out in the cold.
 

Announcing it so quickly though is worrying and won’t do much to placate the left of the party.

[ewerk 26415]

On 08/05/2021 at 10:54, TheGingerQuiff said:

They interviewed a hartlepool tory voter this morning on bbc and he blamed Labour for the cuts in police amongst other things. Unchallenged of course

Jesus Christ.

[PaddockLad 14610]

Bit of context...the Labour candidate was one of the doctors who made this decision when Labour were in government. The choice of candidate appears to be almost as bad as Hilary Clinton for the Democrats in 2016..

 

https://www.thenorthernecho.co.uk/news/1907279.accident-victim-taken-12-miles-next-hospital/