Politics

[TheGingerQuiff 2412]

1 minute ago, Renton said:

 

Yes. It was a gamble that paid off well. I fully accept that  but the actual application of it and the decision to lengthen the time between doses has nothing to do with them. It was driven by the NHS and scientists. And nothing changes all the other catastrophic mistakes they made in the pandemic. To vote tory because of their handling of the pandemic makes you, erm, a bit thick. 

I would be concerned if politicians hadn't delegated vaccine rollout to health professionals and scientists mind. An odd stick to beat them with.

[TheGingerQuiff 2412]

Voting for a working class party from a middle class position whilst sneering at the working classes. And even now, after seeing the damage that has done, you remain entrenched. You're the problem. 

[NJS 3986]

2 minutes ago, TheGingerQuiff said:

I would be concerned if politicians hadn't delegated vaccine rollout to health professionals and scientists mind. An odd stick to beat them with.

They had experienced professional experts who do test and trace (environmental health) but that didn't stop them giving billions to amateurs. 

[TheGingerQuiff 2412]

Just now, NJS said:

They had experienced professional experts who do test and trace (environmental health) but that didn't stop them giving billions to amateurs. 

 

Shite isn't it. Almost unfathomable that the opposition hasn't been able to capitalise 

[PaddockLad 14638]

10 minutes ago, TheGingerQuiff said:

I would be concerned if politicians hadn't delegated vaccine rollout to health professionals and scientists mind. An odd stick to beat them with.

 

They delegated PPE to they're completely unqualified carpet bagging mates though.  Why was thst again? 

[TheGingerQuiff 2412]

Just now, PaddockLad said:

 

They delegated PPE to they're completely unqualified carpet bagging mates though.  Why was thst again? 

 

Probably because they knew they could get away with it because the opposition has alienated it's core supporters

[TheGingerQuiff 2412]

And "Sir" Starmer tickling that punchbag isn't winning them back. Bring back 2 jags

[Renton 17828]

16 minutes ago, TheGingerQuiff said:

Places like London might have had the luxury of being able to accommodate those immigrants without it affecting the working class. I mean when I started working I witnessed it first hand, once decent blue collar jobs turned into turned into low quality disposable agency jobs on lower pay and it largely coincided with an influx of Eastern Europeans. It happened on labour's watch as well.

 

The stats and academic research don't support your experience though. For instance, Sunderland has about 1% of its population who are European immigrants. Many of these will be professional or carer roles which are difficult to fill with local workers. The financial crash and tory austerity are the problem. Reducing immigration whilst removing your workplace rights is not going too help you. Of course, the tories have been grooming the immigrant scape goat for years and people have fallen for it hook, line, and sinker. 

[PaddockLad 14638]

5 minutes ago, TheGingerQuiff said:

 

Probably because they knew they could get away with it because the opposition has alienated it's core supporters

And you’d still choose to vote for them even though you can see what they’re all about? Why? That’s the point. Why would you vote for posh gangsters hiding in plain sight? Fuckin why? Is it the flag worship that you like?  The movement of borrowed public money into the back pockets of a tiny group of smirking wankers turns you on? 
 

There’s an alternative, it’s not great I’ll grant you but it’s there. Starmer is a poor opposition leader but I think he’d make a very good PM..he’s dull but honest. About as honest as politicians get. 

[Renton 17828]

8 minutes ago, TheGingerQuiff said:

And "Sir" Starmer tickling that punchbag isn't winning them back. Bring back 2 jags

Yep, the tories and their media buddies have won the propaganda role. I mean, wee can't let a man who looks funny earing a bacon butty be PM can we? 

[Renton 17828]

29 minutes ago, TheGingerQuiff said:

Voting for a working class party from a middle class position whilst sneering at the working classes. And even now, after seeing the damage that has done, you remain entrenched. You're the problem. 

 

I can think of two examples where that might have happened. Brown with old lady who wasn't keen on poles, and Thornberry, with her tweet on the flag of St George. Both ill advised and many years ago but hardly as offensive as what Johnson comes out with on a daily basis. Do you have any other examples?

 

Or do you mean people on the Internet, people like me? Imagine letting that dictate the way you vote!

.

Edited May 8, 2021 by Renton

[Dr Gloom 19839]

7 minutes ago, Renton said:

 

The stats and academic research don't support your experience though. For instance, Sunderland has about 1% of its population who are European immigrants. Many of these will be professional or carer roles which are difficult to fill with local workers. The financial crash and tory austerity are the problem. Reducing immigration whilst removing your workplace rights is not going too help you. Of course, the tories have been grooming the immigrant scape goat for years and people have fallen for it hook, line, and sinker. 

Are the financial crash and austerity the problem? I used to think so too. But who did all those insecure workers vote for in Hartlepool, the 10th most deprived town in Britain? They voted for the sodding Tories. So they can't be that insecure or pissed off can they? Surely austerity wasn't as bad as we all thought and surely it can't have affected as many people as we thought if the areas most affected by it now vote Tory in ever greater numbers? 

[Dr Gloom 19839]

Unless they’re all just absolute morons, which I don’t buy. Maybe they just like what the Tories are doing? 

[TheGingerQuiff 2412]

Just now, Renton said:

 

The stats and academic research don't support your experience though. For instance, Sunderland has about 1% of its population who are European immigrants. Many of these will be professional or carer roles which are difficult to fill with local workers. The financial crash and tory austerity are the problem. Reducing immigration whilst removing your workplace rights is not going too help you. Of course, the tories have been grooming the immigrant scape goat for years and people have fallen for it hook, line, and sinker. 

 

I don't really care what your analysis is from the office. I witnessed it first hand. There was fucking loads of them at one point before the 09 crash. There was then an exodus but I think the resentment remained. The rise of the employment agency and agency jobs coincided with Eastern European influx and continued after they left. Nobody listened to the working class and brexit is the result. And now the tories have shown some pragmatism and you're still making the same arguments you were 5 years ago.

[TheGingerQuiff 2412]

9 minutes ago, PaddockLad said:

And you’d still choose to vote for them even though you can see what they’re all about? Why? That’s the point. Why would you vote for posh gangsters hiding in plain sight? Fuckin why? Is it the flag worship that you like?  The movement of borrowed public money into the back pockets of a tiny group of smirking wankers turns you on? 
 

There’s an alternative, it’s not great I’ll grant you but it’s there. Starmer is a poor opposition leader but I think he’d make a very good PM..he’s dull but honest. About as honest as politicians get. 

 

Eh? You've mistaken me for a tory.

[Howmanheyman 26967]

49 minutes ago, Renton said:

 

I'm struggling to believe those figures too. The large majority of healthcare worker I know have a visceral hatred of the tories and Jihnson/Hancock in particular. Also they are well aware the NHS rolled out the vaccine, other than procurement it has fuck all to do with government. I don't buy it. 

+1

[Dr Gloom 19839]

I usually like Paul Mason's stuff but thought this was just bollocks

https://www.newstatesman.com/politics/2021/05/keir-starmer-must-face-truth-he-needs-left-win 

Loads of guff about inviting charisma-free cretins like Richard Burgon and Rebecca Wrong Daily back into the shadow cabinet

I don’t think any of it matters anymore. Facts, honesty, accountability, jobs, the economy - none of it matters. It’s about how you make people feel. Labour needs to find a leader who can make people FEEL good. Depressing as fuck but they might need to find their own charismatic liar to take on a Johnson. 

[TheGingerQuiff 2412]

8 minutes ago, Renton said:

Yep, the tories and their media buddies have won the propaganda role. I mean, wee can't let a man who looks funny earing a bacon butty be PM can we? 

 

What blue collar workers really like is a pacifist. That'll get them back on side. We all laughed at the Jersey boat stunt (rightly so) but if Labour don't play to that audience then they aren't getting elected, sorry.

[TheGingerQuiff 2412]

9 minutes ago, Renton said:

 

I can think of two examples where that might have happened. Brown with old lady who wasn't keen on poles, and Thornberry, with her tweet on the flag of St George. Both ill advised and many years ago but hardly as offensive as what Johnson comes out with on a daily basis. Do you have any other examples?

 

Or do you mean people on the Internet, people like me? Imagine letting that dictate the way you vote!

.

I vote Labour. I'm just trying to analyse why Tories have taken down the red wall without ThIcK xEnOpHoBeS dominating my thinking.

[PaddockLad 14638]

Just now, TheGingerQuiff said:

 

Eh? You've mistaken me for a tory.

No you’re pro Brexit. Labour v Tory is over. 

[Renton 17828]

5 minutes ago, TheGingerQuiff said:

 

I don't really care what your analysis is from the office. I witnessed it first hand. There was fucking loads of them at one point before the 09 crash. There was then an exodus but I think the resentment remained. The rise of the employment agency and agency jobs coincided with Eastern European influx and continued after they left. Nobody listened to the working class and brexit is the result. And now the tories have shown some pragmatism and you're still making the same arguments you were 5 years ago.

 

I'm not denying you were personally affected. Also, I sympathise and was personally against FoM for Eastern Europe at the time. It was a mistake.

 

But I don't think it affected you as much as other factors and I don't think Brexit will help you one little bit. Also let's clarify some facts about the Brexit vote. A large majority of Labour voters (both blue collar and metropolitan elite) did not vote for Brexit. Secondly, the most significant block that got it over the line was the tory middle England shires. How do you explain that other then they were gammons aligned with the Daily Mail? 

[TheGingerQuiff 2412]

Just now, PaddockLad said:

No you’re pro Brexit. Labour v Tory is over. 

No I voted remain. And I was pro second referendum. Which I now accept was a poor position for the Labour Party to take because all the brexiters have fucked off

[Renton 17828]

2 minutes ago, TheGingerQuiff said:

No I voted remain. And I was pro second referendum. Which I now accept was a poor position for the Labour Party to take because all the brexiters have fucked off

 

Fair enough. It's been a fucKing disaster. I honestly don't know where we go from here. I'm not going to stop calling the likes of CT a thick xenophobe though. 

[TheGingerQuiff 2412]

Just now, Renton said:

 

I'm not denying you were personally affected. Also, I sympathise and was personally against FoM for Eastern Europe at the time. It was a mistake.

 

But I don't think it affected you as much as other factors and I don't think Brexit will help you one little bit. Also let's clarify some facts about the Brexit vote. A large majority of Labour voters (both blue collar and metropolitan elite) did not vote for Brexit. Secondly, the most significant block that got it over the line was the tory middle England shires. How do you explain that other then they were gammons aligned with the Daily Mail? 

Immigration didn't affect me personally I just witnessed what was happening in the sector I was working and I witnessed the frustration it was causing. And I agree brexit wasn't the answer I just accept that it was a result of people's concerns being dismissed. The Labour voters that the tories have nicked are the brexit voters though. Not sure what you're asking me here, never denied that there wasn't a chunk of middle class brexiteer. 

[Rayvin 4964]

15 minutes ago, TheGingerQuiff said:

 

What blue collar workers really like is a pacifist. That'll get them back on side. We all laughed at the Jersey boat stunt (rightly so) but if Labour don't play to that audience then they aren't getting elected, sorry.

 

You're only looking at this from one side. If Labour -do- play to that audience, they also won't get elected. Because they will lose people who would find such nonsense repulsive.

 

They're losing voters to the Tories, sure, but they're also losing them to the Greens and LDs. They're failing on both sides.