Jamaal's jizz-juggling, trouser snake-shakers v Huddersfield

[Rayvin 4964]

8 minutes ago, The Fish said:

I have some magic beans to sell if you're in the market?

 

I actually think Ashley will let the club spend whatever it makes, I don't see why he wouldn't. Unless he's eager to pay off that loan of his I suppose.

[Dr Gloom 19838]

2 minutes ago, Rayvin said:

 

I actually think Ashley will let the club spend whatever it makes, I don't see why he wouldn't. Unless he's eager to pay off that loan of his I suppose.

why did you come tot hat conclusion? he didn't let us spend what we made this season, did he? 

[The Fish 9010]

1 minute ago, Rayvin said:

 

I actually think Ashley will let the club spend whatever it makes, I don't see why he wouldn't. Unless he's eager to pay off that loan of his I suppose.

Based on what though? The club made plenty of money before the summer window closed and further investment was possible in the winter. Ashley assured us that Benitez would be allowed to spend every penny the club made, and while the club made a lot, we spent sweet F.A.

[Rayvin 4964]

2 minutes ago, The Fish said:

Based on what though? The club made plenty of money before the summer window closed and further investment was possible in the winter. Ashley assured us that Benitez would be allowed to spend every penny the club made, and while the club made a lot, we spent sweet F.A.

 

Yeah but if we end up buying these loan players you could argue it's just 'try before you buy'. Which, as I've said previously, I'm actually ok with.

 

EDIT - sorry, to answer the main question - based on the fact that it'd be stupid not to and I don't see where the money goes if we don't, really.

Edited April 3, 2018 by Rayvin

[Alex 30452]

3 minutes ago, Dr Gloom said:

why did you come tot hat conclusion? he didn't let us spend what we made this season, did he? 

Probably did given the losses incurred from relegation. I think you could argue that and if (big fucking 'if') he keeps the promise of letting the club spend what it generates I'll be reasonably happy going forward.

[The Fish 9010]

4 minutes ago, Rayvin said:

 

Yeah but if we end up buying these loan players you could argue it's just 'try before you buy'. Which, as I've said previously, I'm actually ok with.

 

EDIT - sorry, to answer the main question - based on the fact that it'd be stupid not to and I don't see where the money goes if we don't, really.

But even with the addition of the 3 loan players, you'd have to be worried that it'll be spun as investment in the 18/19 squad, when really it's money that should have been spent in the 17/18 season.

It was stupid to fail to invest when we finished 5th, it was stupid to hold off from sacking McClaren until it was too late, it was stupid to fail to invest in the January window when it was obvious the summer would see an inflated market. That something is stupid doesn't seem a big enough deterrent for Ashley and Co.

[Alex 30452]

I agree by the way that Ashley has been daft (and lucky) to get away with not allowing more investment over the summer gone, but I also see it as being in line with what he said about the club spending within the constraints of what it generates.

[Rayvin 4964]

Just now, The Fish said:

But even with the addition of the 3 loan players, you'd have to be worried that it'll be spun as investment in the 18/19 squad, when really it's money that should have been spent in the 17/18 season.

It was stupid to fail to invest when we finished 5th, it was stupid to hold off from sacking McClaren until it was too late, it was stupid to fail to invest in the January window when it was obvious the summer would see an inflated market. That something is stupid doesn't seem a big enough deterrent for Ashley and Co.

 

I'm not worried ultimately because I can't do anything about it. Ashley isn't stupid IMO, he's just a gambler. With Rafa here he's in pretty safe hands so I can see the argument that he will keep things tight on the spending front. But then he would surely lose his manager after another year and end up having to give £80m to someone like McClaren.

 

Ultimately, what is the point in all of this for Ashley if not to maximise the value of his asset. He doesn't seem that arsed about selling, and if he can run the club at a profit and still compete, why wouldn't he?

[The Fish 9010]

1 minute ago, Alex said:

I agree by the way that Ashley has been daft (and lucky) to get away with not allowing more investment over the summer gone, but I also see it as being in line with what he said about the club spending within the constraints of what it generates.

Is it in line though? plenty of money from player sales and losing a few big earners from the wages, whatever pittance we got from promotion and Championship tv money, the first tranche of Premier League tv money, and so on. I think we've spent naff all and significantly less than Ashley promised to Benitez. Even if it's just £15m, that's a £20m striker instead of Joselu.

[The Fish 9010]

2 minutes ago, Rayvin said:

 

I'm not worried ultimately because I can't do anything about it. Ashley isn't stupid IMO, he's just a gambler. With Rafa here he's in pretty safe hands so I can see the argument that he will keep things tight on the spending front. But then he would surely lose his manager after another year and end up having to give £80m to someone like McClaren.

 

Ultimately, what is the point in all of this for Ashley if not to maximise the value of his asset. He doesn't seem that arsed about selling, and if he can run the club at a profit and still compete, why wouldn't he?

Because he can run the club at a larger profit, get his tat-store on the tv and doesn't give a monkeys about competing. If Benitez does get fed up, we'll be back to the poundshop for managers, which, like you say, will mean greater expense if we're to stay in the top flight. Keeping Benitez sweet might be costly, but he can turn a poor side average and and average side good. The majority of managerial candidates out there can't claim the same.

[Rayvin 4964]

Just now, The Fish said:

Because he can run the club at a larger profit, get his tat-store on the tv and doesn't give a monkeys about competing. If Benitez does get fed up, we'll be back to the poundshop for managers, which, like you say, will mean greater expense if we're to stay in the top flight. Keeping Benitez sweet might be costly, but he can turn a poor side average and and average side good. The majority of managerial candidates out there can't claim the same.

 

Ok, and why do you think Ashley wouldn't be aware of that?

[Alex 30452]

2 minutes ago, The Fish said:

Is it in line though? plenty of money from player sales and losing a few big earners from the wages, whatever pittance we got from promotion and Championship tv money, the first tranche of Premier League tv money, and so on. I think we've spent naff all and significantly less than Ashley promised to Benitez. Even if it's just £15m, that's a £20m striker instead of Joselu.

Don't know really is the honest answer. Could have been another £15m but no players available who were worth signing as even £20m gets you fuck all in terms of a striker now? I'm dead cynical regarding Ashley so accept he could well not make good on his promise, just not 100% sure that has already been the case

[adios 717]

9 minutes ago, Rayvin said:

Ashley isn't stupid IMO, he's just a gambler.

Stupid is as stupid does.

 

He's probably a bloke of marginally above average intelligence with cognitive biases you could comfortably steer the QE2 through. 

[Rayvin 4964]

Assuming we pick up Dubravka and Kennedy for something like £25m (I know the latter is less likely), and spend about £30m on a striker... what else do we even need? Another couple of loans, maybe one or two younger players for the future but... It's not like he needs to spend £100m. Or even £80m. Probably around £50m would cover the main issues in the squad. I can see us spending that if it is required for Benitez to stay. Especially if we get that extra £10m from finishing 10th instead of 15th

[adios 717]

Every other team in the league will improve from their current position by at least £100m (dependant on their finances tbf).

[Alex 30452]

2 minutes ago, adios said:

Every other team in the league will improve from their current position by at least £100m (dependant on their finances tbf).

Good point

[TheGingerQuiff 2412]

14 minutes ago, Rayvin said:

Assuming we pick up Dubravka and Kennedy for something like £25m (I know the latter is less likely), and spend about £30m on a striker... what else do we even need? Another couple of loans, maybe one or two younger players for the future but... It's not like he needs to spend £100m. Or even £80m. Probably around £50m would cover the main issues in the squad. I can see us spending that if it is required for Benitez to stay. Especially if we get that extra £10m from finishing 10th instead of 15th

 

We need about 3 new strikers

[The Fish 9010]

1 hour ago, Rayvin said:

 

Ok, and why do you think Ashley wouldn't be aware of that?

I think he's aware. I just think he's arrogant enough to gamble that whomever he gets in will do enough, on the limited budget he's willing to release, to survive in the Premier League. 

Every chance he's had to make a sensible decision he's not taken it. Appoint a manager who's willing to operate under a Director of Football model, appoint competent (if more expensive) directors who actually know about football. Don't appoint a lunatic whose previous position was  4 years ago with Nottingham Forest. Stick with the team whose spirit and togetherness was vital in promotion from the 2nd flight. Sanction investment into a 5th placed squad, bin off a manager who was only taking us in one direction, appoint an actual manager to steer us to safety instead of the garbage monster Carver. Don't antagonise the fanbase. Don't rebrand a famous old stadium. Don't make promises you've no intention of keeping. Don't antagonise an elite coach who is steering the club back to the top flight. Sell revenue space inside the ground for actual income, instead of hawking your tat-store. Don't get in bed with a payday loan company. 

He might be great at taking a distressed brand and running it into the ground for a tidy profit, but he's incompetent at running a football club.

[Rayvin 4964]

Just now, The Fish said:

I think he's aware. I just think he's arrogant enough to gamble that whomever he gets in will do enough, on the limited budget he's willing to release, to survive in the Premier League. 

Every chance he's had to make a sensible decision he's not taken it. Appoint a manager who's willing to operate under a Director of Football model, appoint competent (if more expensive) directors who actually know about football. Don't appoint a lunatic whose previous position was  4 years ago with Nottingham Forest. Stick with the team whose spirit and togetherness was vital in promotion from the 2nd flight. Sanction investment into a 5th placed squad, bin off a manager who was only taking us in one direction, appoint an actual manager to steer us to safety instead of the garbage monster Carver. Don't antagonise the fanbase. Don't rebrand a famous old stadium. Don't make promises you've no intention of keeping. Don't antagonise an elite coach who is steering the club back to the top flight. Sell revenue space inside the ground for actual income, instead of hawking your tat-store. Don't get in bed with a payday loan company. 

He might be great at taking a distressed brand and running it into the ground for a tidy profit, but he's incompetent at running a football club.

 

I think if you consider that he thought McClaren was probably a good appointment, backed with £80m, and that we've had Rafa since then - you could look at just the past couple of years and consider that he may have learned his lesson. Ok so it's qualified - he wouldn't invest to make sure we would go up but actually we did so anyway so his gamble paid off. He wouldn't invest to make sure we would stay up this season but again, his gamble looks like it will pay off. So yeah, considering his full tenure - lots of mistakes. The past couple of years? I'm not convinced he's made one to be honest. You could point to the relationship with Rafa breaking down but we only have papertalk to support that, and idk, Rafa is still here. He forked out for Rafa (he could have gotten rid of him when we went down remember) so I'm prepared to consider that a 'good' decision. In fact, that decision alone makes me think that he can actually see the value and long term cost savings of having someone like Rafa here, and happy. If the club generates its own money so he doesn't have to invest, I don't see at all why he would have a problem with us spending.

[The Fish 9010]

1 hour ago, Rayvin said:

Assuming we pick up Dubravka and Kennedy for something like £25m (I know the latter is less likely), and spend about £30m on a striker... what else do we even need? Another couple of loans, maybe one or two younger players for the future but... It's not like he needs to spend £100m. Or even £80m. Probably around £50m would cover the main issues in the squad. I can see us spending that if it is required for Benitez to stay. Especially if we get that extra £10m from finishing 10th instead of 15th

What do we need? Well I'd say a Right back, a left back, more quality in the centre of the park, a number 10 and a striker or 2. Plus the youth teams need heavy investment.

Say we sign those 2 permanently, and a striker for £30m. That's £55m. Can you see Ashley investing the £50m needed to strengthen the rest of what is a decidedly average squad. For me, it's only if it's from players sales (though quite how we'd raise that kind of cash from this squad is a mystery). He's going to put the tv money into the bank, either pay himself some of the money we owe him, or "into the running of the club". He's not going to dip into his pocket.

 

The biggest issue is if Benitez thinks he's being taken for a mug. If he does, he'll walk, and there's few managers who could get the same tune out of this lot, and fewer still who'd want to manage Mike Ashley's Newcastle United.

[adios 717]

@Rayvin Were you awake for the last three windows as a matter of interest?   

[Dr Gloom 19838]

@The FishI don’t think his incompetence is in doubt.

even if he is spending what the club makes, which I doubt given the complete absence of net spend the last 18 months, sometimes a business has to borrow a bit just to tread water, let alone move forwards.

 

 

[adios 717]

An injured striker...on loan...on the last day of the window.

 

If Rafa wasn't such a genius, relegation would already be a certainty.

[Rayvin 4964]

1 minute ago, The Fish said:

What do we need? Well I'd say a Right back, a left back, more quality in the centre of the park, a number 10 and a striker or 2. Plus the youth teams need heavy investment.

Say we sign those 2 permanently, and a striker for £30m. That's £55m. Can you see Ashley investing the £50m needed to strengthen the rest of what is a decidedly average squad. For me, it's only if it's from players sales (though quite how we'd raise that kind of cash from this squad is a mystery). He's going to put the tv money into the bank, either pay himself some of the money we owe him, or "into the running of the club". He's not going to dip into his pocket.

 

The biggest issue is if Benitez thinks he's being taken for a mug. If he does, he'll walk, and there's few managers who could get the same tune out of this lot, and fewer still who'd want to manage Mike Ashley's Newcastle United.

 

You think we need to sign those two players, a striker, left and right backs and another first teamer in the centre, plus youth investment, to hit what? Top 10? We're already within touching distance of that with the loanees. If we had them for a full season you would think we would be 8th to 10th. With the additional players you're talking about I suspect we could be pushing into 7th but... is that really what we should be aiming for next season? I reckon Rafa would be satisfied with the ability to go top 10 and a decent cup run personally.

[The Fish 9010]

1 minute ago, Rayvin said:

 

I think if you consider that he thought McClaren was probably a good appointment, backed with £80m, and that we've had Rafa since then - you could look at just the past couple of years and consider that he may have learned his lesson. Ok so it's qualified - he wouldn't invest to make sure we would go up but actually we did so anyway so his gamble paid off. He wouldn't invest to make sure we would stay up this season but again, his gamble looks like it will pay off. So yeah, considering his full tenure - lots of mistakes. The past couple of years? I'm not convinced he's made one to be honest. You could point to the relationship with Rafa breaking down but we only have papertalk to support that, and idk, Rafa is still here. He forked out for Rafa (he could have gotten rid of him when we went down remember) so I'm prepared to consider that a 'good' decision. In fact, that decision alone makes me think that he can actually see the value and long term cost savings of having someone like Rafa here, and happy. If the club generates its own money so he doesn't have to invest, I don't see at all why he would have a problem with us spending.

Just because a gamble's paid off, does not mean it wasn't a stupid bloody gamble. The lack of investment in last season's winter window was proof positive that the man is idiotic when it comes to football. Every man and his dog knew that the price of players was only going to go up and, at the time, we were in 2nd only 6pts clear of 3rd. Given we had the money, given play offs are a gamble in themselves, given the club was an easier sell then than it was in the previous summer, given Rafa, given everything... that's when we should have invested. Loan a young player from an elite club, with a view to buying if we went up. Buy a bit of quality from a struggling side to carry us over the finish line. 

Spending less than he promised is one thing, to be outspent by Brighton and Huddersfield is ridiculous. 

Don't forget about the nonsense surrounding the failed takeover too. If Benitez walks, do does a significant chunk of the club's resale value. If we're not a Premier League club, we're worth far less. He could have banked a profit on the club and walked off into the sunset, never needing to worry about the mean Geordies ever again.