Rayvin

Alternatively we actually need to do something about misinformation in the media. And by 'do something' I quite possibly mean start locking people up.

Yep. I don't know how he's done it, but yep. I'm not even sure what the Dems have done wrong in the short term. Maybe should have ditched Biden sooner? But honestly I don't know what difference it would make. My big concern is that Biden was simply an anti-Trump vote at the time, and he's been a safe pair of hands but that isn't what our civilisation needs anymore. It needs actual change and meaningful direction. Trump happens to speak to that, so we have to go with him again.. It's a good demonstration of what I fear the issue to be in the UK as well. I mean I honestly can't point to what the Democrats have done wrong other than having absolutely no vision.

Also I wouldn't suggest that the messaging be that 'they're ugly, misogynist pricks'. It should be one of empowerment and compassion. Outlining that men have a lot to offer the world, that 'masculine' traits of strength and responsibility are important and needed in society, and that positive relationships with women are fundamentally important in permitting a man to live a happy life. That they don't need to define themselves by whether they're in a relationship or not, and that they don't need validation by women or other men. I don't see the left carrying anything resembling this message, not that I'm claiming my 4am ramblings should be gospel. I see a lot of the 'ugly, misogynist pricks' bit around, but if I was them that rhetoric would just make me dig my heels in all the more as a middle finger to the people saying it. And while we may enjoy saying it, the longer these guys are off the deep end, the more harm they do to themselves and others.

I don't think we can just wash our hands like that though. They're young, it is possible to get through to them but we just don't actually bother to do this. I mean I just spent the last few minutes trying to imagine what the 'left wing idea' of positive masculinity was, and it's actually a little challenging to do. Even when you have established some themes, how often are any of us saying it out loud. And if we're not, why do we expect that anyone else is? I came across this article before on Gen Z in the US: https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/ng-interactive/2024/aug/07/gen-z-voters-political-ideology-gender-gap Polls indicate that young men’s views on gender, femininity and masculinity are rapidly shifting. In 2022, 49% of gen Z men said that the United States had become “too soft and feminine”, Deckman found. Just a year later, 60% of gen Z men said the same. Deckman found that those who agreed with the statement were far more likely to have voted for Trump in 2016 – even after controlling for political party. That's quite a shift for 1 year. We're losing ground rapidly because we're doing fuck all.

I think we're already sharing that message mate. Doesn't seem to be working that well on winning over young men on its own. We need to be giving them something positive for themselves in all this too, is my point. There are positive messages from a left wing perspective of course, but Tate has somehow conquered several of them already. He's about physical and mental well-being believe it or not - the fact that he's toxic as fuck (even for men) is irrelevant, he's operating in a vacuum as far as positive messaging for men goes, so he gets to say whatever the fuck he likes. There are a fairly scary number of young men following this guy now, or aligned with his ideology. EDIT: I am just gonna add here that I despise Andrew Tate, that I've stood up in front of groups of these young men before and called him and his narratives out, and that you can get a surprising distance with some actual positive messaging in such conversations to the point at least of it becoming clear that they will listen if someone bothers to take the time to talk. Which is why I thought someone higher profile who could generate a following around some positive ideas might be a good idea. I recognise now that such thinking is 'mental' and that we have already solved this by burying our heads in the sand

I mean you're looking at him through our lens though. To them, he's someone who empowers and speaks positively for young men. You may disagree with this, but that's how they see him. So when I say we need a left wing version of him, what I mean is that we need a left wing role model who can share a positive vision for young men to aspire to that speaks to their needs and desires rather than scolds them, but does it in a non-toxic/harmful way. Or, y'know, we can keep losing.

Raab, that was it. Fucking bellend.

Incels aren't born though, they're made. Don't think we should wash our hands of it - if our rhetoric isn't speaking to young men, that's actually our problem. Who is the left wing version of Andrew Tate exactly? I find a lot of virtuous good in left wing masculinity but no one ever seems to be prepared to say anything positive about it. It's all warnings to behave in a certain way and grouping all men into a single negative category that a lot of them are clearly not mature enough to handle dealing with. I do some work alongside younger men and you can see that they are decent guys, but that they feel attacked quite often. Seems like they want positive messaging to move towards and will take it in whatever guise it comes. Much like literally everyone else does. We can't afford not to speak to them IMO.

I hope he has one of those story arcs where he becomes vulnerable to a lot of the damage and harm he supported while he was in government - then we see him coming out in protest about how difficult it all is. On that note, where is Hancock these days? And that other gremlin.. he was short and had a very punchable face. Not Gove, though I could understand if your mind went there. The one who said he'd never read the Good Friday agreement despite needing to as part of the Brexit negotiations. Genuinely can't remember his name but I think it was a short last name. Like cunt. No, not Jeremy either.

Per my comment in the politics thread, I do think that general trend should worry us.

Have also found myself steering clear of social media with the singular exception of discord. At least with that one you're just talking to people rather than sharing photos/unrealistic lifestyles etc. It really doesn't feel like it's doing anything positive for society.

You mind sharing a bit more on it? Like is it her addiction or cyber bullying or what? Fair enough if you don't wanna share btw, just considering it with one eye on my sis I guess.

The Tories did go to some lengths on it as I recall but it is an easy one for them I guess. Didn't May try to do something there? There was a huge outcry from the free speech warriors about them censoring the internet. Agree on protecting children anyway - I don't have any myself but my younger sister is 13 and some of the things she tells me about the sort of abuse girls have to put up with in mixed schools makes me shudder, and I'm quite sure it's being promoted by easy access to porn and the like.

Fair, I guess that my point comes down to really is that I can't take this situation anymore. But that's my own issue and I suppose reflective of my own life. I'm not calling for a revolution though, I think more than any other single thing, I'd call for truth. I can accept bad news if it's the truth, but I think at this point I'm so enraged by the lack of truth telling in politics in general about why we are where we are, that I have no patience for anything anyone is saying anymore. Nor do I trust it. Honestly I think I am very sadly approaching 'they're all as bad as each other' because none of them tell the truth about the things that really matter (to me). I think this fair, and tbh I'm not sitting here pretending I know the ins and outs of anything so I'm definitely not feeling patronised mate, I respect your views and what informs them. I think honestly I'm just stuck now on what I feel about this rather than what the reality may or may not be. I feel let down. I feel ignored, I feel like my values and principles aren't represented. If they're still there at all, it seems we have to go digging for them rather than them being shared proudly. I resent that I have been left behind by the party that is meant to represent me, and which I backed through thick and thin my entire adult life, in favour of people who don't believe in any of the things I do. I look around as well at Gen Z, and if you ask me, they're heading to the right - but it's happening because the left isn't speaking to them. I mean is the left actually speaking to anyone anymore? Where are our voices in the maelstrom? Meanwhile the right is all over them, filling their minds with poison - and our left leaning government is parroting their talking points. We can't even stand up for what we believe in. We're too afraid to do it because what we actually believe in, apparently can't win on its own merits. It has to be hidden and obfuscated, achieved via half measures or through stealth. And I accept the realities around this but at the same time, I absolutely fucking hate it. I cannot overstate how much I hate watching the left 'pretend' to be centrist. So my ongoing belligerence with this issue isn't even really ideological anymore, it's that I feel abandoned by people who I thought felt the same way as me.

I don't want to talk about how deliverable it would be because I've seen left wingers come out against immigration and in support of austerity the past few pages. I'm not getting into that, it's going to depress the hell out of me. If the left is saying that stuff, we really have lost completely. I'm not putting this all on Labour but look around you. Do you know anyone who is happy in life at the moment? I don't. No matter who I talk to, life seems completely shit. People cant get jobs, cant afford homes, cant look after their families properly, lonely, on more medication than ever, the list goes on. Rearranging deckchairs is not going to save us from the crippling negativity of this time. We need some actual vision of a better future, and I think my primary complaint with Starmer is that he has fucking nothing on that. The little he does have I just flat out don't believe after all his broken promises.

Well, they're sticking to what they said they were going to do. Nothing that helps the rot in any significant way. Hard to fault them for sticking to what they said.

I'd have taken an LD government over this one tbh. Fair enough anyway, though I don't agree at all.

Fair enough but it's still not my point. My point is, did Labour have to be so timid or do you think in hindsight that they could have been far bolder?

None of you answered my question. I didn't ask you how deliverable or appropriate that manifesto was, or if it would have been a good thing. I asked you if Labour could have won on it. The point of the question being to outline that Labour were being far, far too careful to appease the right compared to what they could actually have done. So I'm asking again, looking back at it now, did they really need to be as careful as they were? It's a weird argument this tbh. We have one group who are "unhelpful, naive and belligerent" arguing with another group who act like they've been traumatised into giving up their values, and will justify all sorts of shit as long as their team won.

I think I would ask all the pragmatists on here something along the lines of... do you think Starmer would have lost if he'd come out with Jeremy Corbyn's manifesto minus the personal baggage and antisemitism stuff? I don't think he would have. I don't for a second think he would have. I think Labour hugely underplayed their hand this election - maybe that makes them more sustainable over time but honestly I think we're going to start struggling to see daylight between them and Cameron's Tories, longer term. And if that is the case, what is even the point.

Worth noting that the Tories had a fair stint of ideological purity mind you. If the Tories can do it, and Labour can't, then we are only ever going to move rightwards. I think we're appeasing too much personally, we're selling out truth and fairness for cheap votes. Maybe it does have to be that way but frankly I don't see the point in a country that operates like that. It means it's already over for the UK. A slow motion car crash into increasing shitness. I know that's not news to anyone here though tbf.

Has to be some sort of record, surely

Was speaking to my dad about this because he technically qualified previously despite the fact he still worked on a part time basis. Apparently he got £500 last year which he gave to a fuel poverty charity because he thought it was immoral to keep it. The man earns comfortably £40k a year working part time and his wife is full time employed still. He owns his own home which is paid off. Why in fuck would he ever need winter fuel allowance? I appreciate he's not typical by a long stretch of everyone but ffs. It's actually an insult to all younger generations that this had gone on so long.

No one in the Tory party has any right to call out anyone in any other party for not being a grown up after Boris Johnson. Or Braverman. Or Truss. Or Matt fucking Hancock.

I honestly dread to think what transpires with this and Ukraine if Trump wins - as it's starting to sound like he may.