Rayvin

The Tories did go to some lengths on it as I recall but it is an easy one for them I guess. Didn't May try to do something there? There was a huge outcry from the free speech warriors about them censoring the internet. Agree on protecting children anyway - I don't have any myself but my younger sister is 13 and some of the things she tells me about the sort of abuse girls have to put up with in mixed schools makes me shudder, and I'm quite sure it's being promoted by easy access to porn and the like.

Fair, I guess that my point comes down to really is that I can't take this situation anymore. But that's my own issue and I suppose reflective of my own life. I'm not calling for a revolution though, I think more than any other single thing, I'd call for truth. I can accept bad news if it's the truth, but I think at this point I'm so enraged by the lack of truth telling in politics in general about why we are where we are, that I have no patience for anything anyone is saying anymore. Nor do I trust it. Honestly I think I am very sadly approaching 'they're all as bad as each other' because none of them tell the truth about the things that really matter (to me). I think this fair, and tbh I'm not sitting here pretending I know the ins and outs of anything so I'm definitely not feeling patronised mate, I respect your views and what informs them. I think honestly I'm just stuck now on what I feel about this rather than what the reality may or may not be. I feel let down. I feel ignored, I feel like my values and principles aren't represented. If they're still there at all, it seems we have to go digging for them rather than them being shared proudly. I resent that I have been left behind by the party that is meant to represent me, and which I backed through thick and thin my entire adult life, in favour of people who don't believe in any of the things I do. I look around as well at Gen Z, and if you ask me, they're heading to the right - but it's happening because the left isn't speaking to them. I mean is the left actually speaking to anyone anymore? Where are our voices in the maelstrom? Meanwhile the right is all over them, filling their minds with poison - and our left leaning government is parroting their talking points. We can't even stand up for what we believe in. We're too afraid to do it because what we actually believe in, apparently can't win on its own merits. It has to be hidden and obfuscated, achieved via half measures or through stealth. And I accept the realities around this but at the same time, I absolutely fucking hate it. I cannot overstate how much I hate watching the left 'pretend' to be centrist. So my ongoing belligerence with this issue isn't even really ideological anymore, it's that I feel abandoned by people who I thought felt the same way as me.

I don't want to talk about how deliverable it would be because I've seen left wingers come out against immigration and in support of austerity the past few pages. I'm not getting into that, it's going to depress the hell out of me. If the left is saying that stuff, we really have lost completely. I'm not putting this all on Labour but look around you. Do you know anyone who is happy in life at the moment? I don't. No matter who I talk to, life seems completely shit. People cant get jobs, cant afford homes, cant look after their families properly, lonely, on more medication than ever, the list goes on. Rearranging deckchairs is not going to save us from the crippling negativity of this time. We need some actual vision of a better future, and I think my primary complaint with Starmer is that he has fucking nothing on that. The little he does have I just flat out don't believe after all his broken promises.

Well, they're sticking to what they said they were going to do. Nothing that helps the rot in any significant way. Hard to fault them for sticking to what they said.

I'd have taken an LD government over this one tbh. Fair enough anyway, though I don't agree at all.

Fair enough but it's still not my point. My point is, did Labour have to be so timid or do you think in hindsight that they could have been far bolder?

None of you answered my question. I didn't ask you how deliverable or appropriate that manifesto was, or if it would have been a good thing. I asked you if Labour could have won on it. The point of the question being to outline that Labour were being far, far too careful to appease the right compared to what they could actually have done. So I'm asking again, looking back at it now, did they really need to be as careful as they were? It's a weird argument this tbh. We have one group who are "unhelpful, naive and belligerent" arguing with another group who act like they've been traumatised into giving up their values, and will justify all sorts of shit as long as their team won.

I think I would ask all the pragmatists on here something along the lines of... do you think Starmer would have lost if he'd come out with Jeremy Corbyn's manifesto minus the personal baggage and antisemitism stuff? I don't think he would have. I don't for a second think he would have. I think Labour hugely underplayed their hand this election - maybe that makes them more sustainable over time but honestly I think we're going to start struggling to see daylight between them and Cameron's Tories, longer term. And if that is the case, what is even the point.

Worth noting that the Tories had a fair stint of ideological purity mind you. If the Tories can do it, and Labour can't, then we are only ever going to move rightwards. I think we're appeasing too much personally, we're selling out truth and fairness for cheap votes. Maybe it does have to be that way but frankly I don't see the point in a country that operates like that. It means it's already over for the UK. A slow motion car crash into increasing shitness. I know that's not news to anyone here though tbf.

Has to be some sort of record, surely

Was speaking to my dad about this because he technically qualified previously despite the fact he still worked on a part time basis. Apparently he got £500 last year which he gave to a fuel poverty charity because he thought it was immoral to keep it. The man earns comfortably £40k a year working part time and his wife is full time employed still. He owns his own home which is paid off. Why in fuck would he ever need winter fuel allowance? I appreciate he's not typical by a long stretch of everyone but ffs. It's actually an insult to all younger generations that this had gone on so long.

No one in the Tory party has any right to call out anyone in any other party for not being a grown up after Boris Johnson. Or Braverman. Or Truss. Or Matt fucking Hancock.

I honestly dread to think what transpires with this and Ukraine if Trump wins - as it's starting to sound like he may.

Iran are along way from saints in all this either frankly. Not good news at all. Does Iran actually think it can handle Israel though..?

You know.. I think I'd take that. It has the added benefit of making a mockery of the whole system.

I don't know that either, really am coming up short in life ffs..

I only got 22 so don't feel too bad Was never very strong on trivia in general.

Is that date noted when he started following it? That's some commitment.

I didn't mean literally ffs I forgot that was even a feature tbh, does anyone use that?

So this thread has stats and people ripping the piss, both with and without stats. This is going to be a good thread. I do appreciate the effort that goes into it anyway though Dave, will follow it

That article makes sense and explains a lot. It's so convincing that it makes me wonder why Hope works for the Mail at all.

Completely support both the point and the anger with which it was delivered.

It's just vindictive. Which I will concede a lot of people in the hard left are.

Gloom is literally in this thread two pages back saying that he's dismayed that despite thinking that this is what would happen, it hasn't. People on here were definitely saying this man Labour were saying nothing whatsoever, I'll give you that.