Rayvin

Much better call to arms, that.

Fair enough - g'night.

I don't think I'd be able to vote for Labour if that happened. I don't think I could consider my views aligned with those who 'flocked' back. I wonder if I'd be alone.

If I believed that elections in this country made the blindest bit of difference, maybe I'd get that point. It wouldn't remove the economic problems of leaving, but it'd be a good political point. But look at our system mate. The Tories won the election by shifting to the centre and beating Labour out of it. Labour tried to clamber back into the centre and failed, ending up with the unelectable Corbyn as leader. People feel Labour should have a centre ground political leader again. Problem is, the Tories are still in the centre. So tell me what meaningful change can come about with both parties vying for the centre. New Labour would have voted TTIP through same as the Tories. Corbyn maybe wouldn't but you and others on here think he's an irrelevance. So what safeguard is he offering exactly? None whatsoever beyond a hypothetical one that involves a series of events you don't feel would ever happen. This is clutching at straws. If you believe that we're better off out of the EU, you're stating that in full knowledge, and indeed full denial of, much of the well researched analysis conducted by experts the world over. That's fine, you're free to do so. And indeed there are even reasons to do so - avoidance of watering down British culture, pride concerning which group of elites tells us what to do, and making sure jobs that British people don't take are not taken by foreigners. But don't go into this thinking that we're all totally wrong in our fears, because we aren't. The only virtue to this is that, given that brexit looks likely, the i told you so's will be all over this thread. No consolation really, but maybe it'll help me explain to my children what the fuck happened when we turned out backs on our friends in Europe due to petty isolationism.

I heard that song today, hence the reference. It's also the Burton Albion club anthem. I know that because I'm a hard-core Albion fan.

I dunno, we look totally ready to go balls deep into TTIP looking at the conservatives presently, and given that we're all certain Labour are unelectable, what difference does any of this even make? Farage and Johnson are going to be in charge of the country now, by the sounds.

So that article sets out that it could be currently vetoed, but that the EU will change it so that it can't be. They haven't yet of course, and so the UK absolutely could veto it. I feel this is a non-argument.

I meant care about what the US/global economists/experts/politicians think. I've assume you care about the debate by virtue of the debate we're having. I assume you don't care what the US thinks.

The French are currently vetoing it ffs, of course we could do the same if we wanted to. The Tories don't want to. This is no different to if we were outside the EU and the Tories were in power. This is a non-argument, surely?

We do have a say... Britain could veto it. We are choosing not to.

Washington has now released a statement setting out that the US ties to Britain will cool significantly if brexit occurs, given that our value to them is as a bridge into Europe. They have expressed deep concern about the developments and the weakening of a key ally (The EU). I know you don't care CT, but honestly, this is going to be a monumental fuck up.

I can't link to it cos I'm on my phone but marina Hyde has just put out an excellent article in the Guardian concerning Nigel Farage and his ascendency to the political crown we're about to give him... It's depressing or course, but worth a read.

It sounds to me like it's over unregulated free trade, compromising consumer standards and health and safety, not to mention agriculture. These are all things we would care about, are they not? This is why the EU works man, our interests are aligned...

Woah hang on, I thought the French temporarily scuppered TTIP. It's on the ropes apparently. Not because we did anything, but because the French kicked it into touch. So actually CT, the EU may well be saving out bacon on that one. https://www.theguardian.com/business/2016/may/03/doubts-rise-over-ttip-as-france-threatens-to-block-eu-us-deal

Dammit, they've worked it out! My undying devotion to Burton Albion is exposed, lying bare and naked on the ground! I'm only surprised it took so long...

Echo chamber.

A testament to how little anyone cares about the euros I think.

CT, putting aside everything else, that last one from the economist. How can that bit about the single market not frighten you? Norway pay 90% of what we do per head for access to a market in which they have no say concerning it's running. That's what we're hoping for as a best case scenario for brexit. And it's fucking terrible. If they make an example of us, which they will have to do, it'll be even worse. They will hurt us. German cars are not as important to Germany as the EU. It is not going to let the EU die, and so it will, absolutely, rightly, and justifiably, kick the fuck out of us. If they don't, if they make leaving look easy, the whole thing will collapse along with 28 other economies. Why would they risk that, they're nowhere near as stupid as we apparently are. Mental stuff, this.

Farage isn't even an MP, how could he be involved at all?

This is a good post, thanks. It is becoming harder to see how the middle class Labour side can co-exist with the working class Labour side. And any Tory with half a brain will want to be as far as possible from the Tory right after this. On the plus side, this is perhaps the change this country has been crying out for. Would far rather the EU wasn't the sacrificial lamb though.

It won't be as simple as that mate. The Tory party is literally tearing itself apart. Most Tory MPs, remember, want to stay in the EU. The Brexit Tories themselves are the ones who are saying we'll need a new GE. No one has a mandate to rule the clusterfuck we're about to live in. I'm not entirely sure people are aware of how seismic this event is...

This is a really fair comment. Agree with pretty much all of it, even the stuff on Corbyn. Would still maintain he was better than the alternatives but that's because I was in the grouping of 'those who were sick of the status quo'

Fair enough - I read this just now in the Guardian about the general feeling in the working classes. Makes sense, and I'd be the first to admit that it's easy to forget how hard things are for some people: http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2016/jun/17/britain-working-class-revolt-eu-referendum Leaving the EU won't improve anything for anyone, least of all the working class, but that's where we are. I'm starting to wonder if Labour will survive this at all actually, I don't know how you reconcile people like you and I, who fall into the more 'lefty', 'bleeding heart', group (probably more me than you!), and the working class who have just turned their backs on progressive policy-making in a fully understandable moment of madness.

Aren't Labour voters still at about 2/3rds for Remain? It's not like Labour has been rapidly losing Remain voters. That said, Rents, for what it's worth, this has shaken my faith in him. I'm hugely pro-Europe and will be gutted if we leave. I wish he'd come out more strongly on this, but given the state of the Tories and the high likelihood that we're getting another general election very soon, I think there's a case to be made for Labour positioning themselves as far outside of this as they can. The were killed in the last GE over the Scotland affair, it'll be hard for anyone to pin this on them. Corbyn has made this all about the Tories. After this all goes down, Corbyn might even look like a viable person to vote for. He hasn't sullied himself in the eyes of the working class in this campaign, and he'll look a fucking load more competent than the Tories to everyone else. For clarity though, that's not worth it for me. I can see his view, if that's it, but I'd rather have the Tories and be in Europe than have Labour and be out.