Rayvin

My point is that if I could tell that we would reach a stage where everyone was calling for a ceasefire early on in developments, then US intelligence would be able to do so. And therefore all the time wasted in them finding the balls to call out clear reality (as if Israel was ever going to be able to eliminate Hamas without an actual genocide ffs) is a cost measured in human lives. Maybe Israel would have completely ignored it, as they are doing, but at least the US would have shown it had principled leadership when it came to the lives of innocents. It is absolutely OK to call out the complete failure in western leadership on this. I mean we knew Brexit would be a fuck up. We called that out. This is the same principle. It's a humanitarian catastrophe that everyone knew it would be, and pretending that we can't call that shit out is doing no one any favours. We are better than this.

We don't, but we do know that whatever they were doing behind the scenes presumably didn't work, leading to them eventually having to publicly call for a ceasefire. I also think the US spent some time claiming that Israel was justified in defending itself iirc. Either way though, it's not our job to justify what they do - it's our job to put forward our views so that they listen to us/represent those views. If people weren't complaining about the US failing to call out Israel, we might be a lot further away from a resolution than we are now. We aren't politicians, we don't have to balance the situation for them. EDIT - let's also not forget that if it has been 'self evident' that Biden should step down, and that we were all mystified that he couldn't see this - why would we have any more faith in his judgement over Gaza? He seems to be someone who needs to be yelled at repeatedly to do the right thing.

Maybe so but the world looks to the US for leadership and Biden dithered on the Israel/Gaza issue for months. He should have come right out from the start and called for a ceasefire like he knew he'd inevitably have to do at some point, and decided to wait for an incredible number of people to die before he'd do the right thing. Presumably in the hope that Israel would 'get it out of their system' with a few tens of thousands. Let's not start becoming so pragmatic about these things that needing 30,000 dead before he will make the right decision is somehow considered to be acceptable. That said, the Green Party are also allowed to make the odd comment, as politicians do, supporting an outcome that they wanted to see without endorsing literally everything the guy stood for.

Yeah but I wonder if there are suspicions around the training methodology on that front. I could see interference there being an unsettling point for Howe.

ICJ has ruled that Israels occupation of Palestine is an annexation, that it is unlawful, and that Palestine is due reparations for 57 years of abuse. Finally, a legitimate body has the balls to call this situation for what it is. So now to the UK. Do we support an internationalist body like the ICJ, or are we going to suit ourselves. The implication seems to be that Israel should be hit with sanctions. https://www.theguardian.com/law/article/2024/jul/19/why-icj-ruling-against-israel-settlement-policies-hard-to-ignore-occupation-palestinian-territories?

Definitely this, we shouldn't overreact to it. He's done this in public to make sure he's heard presumably. Think he might be one of those people who manages upwards based on this tbh. Maybe wishful thinking though.

Yeah that's not super reassuring but at the same time it feels more like he has some manner of demands on the table for the club to meet rather than he is about to leave? So maybe they need to align on imminent strategy before he can make a decision. It also feels tbf like if they can't do that, he'd be off whether England approached him or not.

It's better than nothing but I do hope Labour quickly discover the economic and growth based imperative to get the fuck back in sooner rather than later. Suppose we need to let them fail at setting up anything useful with the EU first.

Sincerely hope Howe tells the FA to do one. We need stability at the moment and more departures from central people is not going to deliver that.

In fairness to Lammy here, even through my left wing lens, Corbyn was pilloried for shaking hands with all sorts of wronguns in his attempt to obtain peace in various places. I saw the sense in that, and I see the sense in what Lammy is doing. I think he's a good man (Lammy) and will be influenced by humanitarian considerations at least in part. I do largely agree on Owen Jones too sadly.

I know PR won't deliver a left wing utopia, I support it because it means I can vote on principle without having to worry about enabling the right. It's also just fairer. Also I really didn't come at this point with a view to the wider left/right/centre debate. It was more about political tribalism - the centrist contingent of British politics has, to my eyes, behaved much the same as the Corbyn supporting left did. That article mentions people in a cult signalling themselves by condemning anyone who views things in a different way to them and so on - that is honestly how I have often been met (not necessarily on here, the guardian comment section has a lot to answer for too) when I have criticised Starmer or current Labour. So my point is that we are all now in our bubbles of self reinforcing truths and it seems a bit odd to criticise the Biden contingent uniquely for it. I'm not pro Biden either.

Devout republican. So does she mean God wouldn't want her to talk to Biden or she felt Biden wouldn't want to talk to her? She seems like a decent person from the rest of it, albeit misguided. I don't think this is on Biden at all tbh, shooter seems to be right wing.

Not sure this is really a response to my point but as usual I'll just leave it.

That account is disgusting and I do not believe it to be a parody. It's followed by the sort of Internet edgelord trash that used to claim it was being ironic in its racism, but now is just outright.

People forget that when Corbyn took over Labour the centre desperately tried to tear him down. There was no united front, there were leadership challenges and gritted teeth. No different in my eyes to what we now see from the left concerning Starmer, though the left have been purged whereas the centre under Corbyn wasn't. What I'm trying to say with this is that people such as myself weren't devoted to Corbyn particularly for who he was, but because we genuinely do believe that significant and meaningful change is needed to actually avert a slow and miserable decline into the shit. Starmer may be more able to 'win' but he doesn't deliver what some of us believe is required. Same with Biden. So sometimes I look at all the Starmer devotees as people who are essentially survivors from an abusive relationship. They are so fearful of being forced back with their abuser that they cling to the safest option. Biden is the safe option for the US. The devil you know. His supporters just want to win, they don't care what they have to support to do so. It's more important to keep Trump out than to have the right person in - and that more than anything is the theme of the centre and the left right across the western world.

Just to paint an opposing view here - Biden is a centrist who most ardent left wingers have criticised since the start for not being radical enough. He's an American Starmer. So while I respect the point about Corbyn, I actually see a lot of the pro-Starmer devotion in what is being said in this article.

Aye but question is from which side. We really need it to be a right wing gun nut style actor.

Whether it's the right choice or not, Labour have only done it because of culture war bullshit. Hence bringing JK back into the fold. The woman is absolutely transphobic. I don't know why trans people are always at the centre of so much political bullshit but I really feel bad for them. Several such people I know aren't politically motivated whatsoever, they just want to be left alone to work themselves out and find happiness. JK, the culture warriors, the boomers, they can all fuck off on this one, IMO.

What an absolute clusterfuck this is going to be.

Think my problem with this side is I just somehow don't like them enough to care about much of this. They're very professional, gifted, inoffensive etc but somehow I just do not connect with them. I think I largely want them to win the thing just to see if it stirs any actual feeling in me. It's miles off how I feel with Newcastle. Some people seem to care about it though so maybe it's just me.

Sorry to hear this mate. I echo what the others have said but beyond that sincerely hope you manage to settle things down over the next few days. You're much loved man. You'll make it to the other side.

It absolutely is a genocide, and I'm fairly sure that Russia would consider it one too. The goal was to eradicate the Ukrainian culture and identity in full. I do worry for the world if Trump wins, Biden better not fuck this up.

You'd have done the same for me mate, always loved ya

Aye, fuck the Tories. Long may they stay buried.

I hit this a couple of years back, just gave up on all of it - it's actually quite the release.