Renton

Trouble is, I haven't heard you say anything remotely tangible or concrete. In my ideal world, focussing on the UK, I would go for much, much closer integration witht the EU, with the UK joining the 4 freedoms as a matter of urgency. I would like us to join the EU, then the euro, and then the EU to become completely fedarlised with Brussels as the capital and major regional capitals like London in a hub and spoke model. Together as a cohesive unit the EU could stand against the tyranny of the US, China, and Russia. I'd pool our defences and use our nuclear deterrent as an umbrella protection for the continent, along with the French. There would be no place for NATO, although Canada and Turkey could become associate members. I would also unfortunately deregulate in some key areas relating to technology and commerce to make us more competitive with the US, but protect individual rights. I'd ban US and Chinese social media platforms and have more closely EU regulated ones as an alternative. I'd... I'd... And there I am typing horseshit. I live in the real World. In the real World, even the first of my solutions is not politically possible. We're an island off the coast of a diminishing economic super power on one side and an ascendent authoritarian super power some way off on the other. And because we are part of neither, we are pretty much in a doom loop at this stage. But history tells us, things will one day change. We just have to wait for that day.

I don't have one. We're fucked.

I think the state of Universities is shocking. And the idea of grading your tutor - well, that definitely puts me off a career in academia (that plus the terrible salary). Honestly, I think we should have capped university at a much lower proportion of places and made entry based purely on academic merit, with those students being subsidised. I gues I would say that. But now, it's just another industry, another service, with the purpose of making money. Not long 'til my kids will need to decide on this.

No, blame social media, again. Thatcher died years ago and has been out of power 35 years! This is a much more recent thing. Whether you're called a customer/consumer/ citizen/passenger/patient makes no odds, just people being dicks.

Except in the UK, it's usually some unemployed charver cunt hurling abuse who come out with this.

That's absolutely terrifying. Only one thing on that list I agree with. It's about as far away from the America of my youth as its possible to be.

Urghh, there will be a contagion effect. The EU is going to be massively tested.

Healthcare and education costs come out of their post-tax net pay, true. Otherwise "communist" (and other than healthcare, we now have the same issue with education here). But this is what they want, Trump hasn't promised to change this. Not sure about food shopping now, its gone up loads but it has everywhere. Petrol also has gone up, but still ridiculously cheap stateside. Interestingly, I don't think Musk will help them with petrol costs.

My wages have gone up much less than inflation despite successive promotions and even moving from the public to private sector. Doesn't make me want to vote for a fascist though. The US median wage is now nearly $60,000 pa, that's more than £46k. What type of job is that in the UK, a junior doctor, a senior nurse or teacher? Definitely graduate level job. Minimum wage in Claifornia is $16 per hour. How many Americans really can't afford to feed their family? The large majority of Americans are doing more than okay,and yet the majority still voted for Trump and utterly abhor policies that could improve their lives, because "they are communist".

I disagree, yet again you highlight the ineffectiveness of the anticancer treatment rather than the cancer itself. They haven't been able to counter a false narrative authored by a coalition of oligarchs with vested interests using powerful new technologies, which they own. When you are asked what the democrats should have offered, in a country that fundamentally hates anything perceived as socialist, you, like the democrats, have no answer.

There are always things parties promise out of power and fail to deliver. I'm not going to check what Biden did and did not deliver, but I've noticed a tendency from sceptics here to cherry pick the data. What did Trump fail to deliver last time round? The US economy has boomed duirng their administration whilst the rest of the World stagnated. The US is once again establishing dominance over the EU and China. Average salary figures are truly shocking - in 2008 the UK had a higher median salary than the US, now we are 50% lower. Biden also introduced huge capital industrial expenditure (inflation reduction act, promoting green energy) the type of which you would normally support. I also know that measure to reduce immigration on the Southern border were deliberately sabotaged by the Republicans. This is what they do and you ignore it. Post covid the US has had a cost of living crisis along with the rest of the World. People were negativley affected. There is also a housing crisis, as there is here, Australia and Canada. In the rest of the World, we knew it was a global problem. Americans are insular and were easily manipulated by Trump to blame this on immigrants. Trump and the republicans lied and lied and lied to the US public, who because many are inherently racist, lapped it up. And you blame the result on the democrats. Yes, they under performed, but this is not fundamentally a problem with the democrats. It signals something much deeper and malignant.

Completely ineffective campaign, clearly. The demographic numbers are horrendous. I just don't know how you counter Trumpism. He's Teflon, literally bullet proof. Half the country have no morals. They don't care he's a liar, sociopath and rapist. Hispanics don't care he is racist. Women ignore his misogyny. His obvious mental decline, no problem for him, that only applies to Biden. I could go on. I don't know how you counter that. Would Sanders have won? I personally really don't think so. Most likely the Overton window in America will swing even further right as the country descends ever closer to outright fascism. I'm worried about two things. The direct impact on the UK and Europe. Trade, economy, security, Ukraine. But much more, the spread of contagion. And I don't know how it can be stopped.

Have to get a dig in on Labour I see. Literally none of you, SB, or Rayvin have said what the Democrats could do differently other than some vague notion of turning the US into a socialist republic which is obviously impossible and really just batshit. The voting population of the US are living in a post truth post morality world now. The electorate is debased. I honestly can't see any solution to that now, other than they will have to go down the route of fascism until they wake up. But then, the country is the only hegemonic superpower left, it's not like any other country can stop them either.

The Senate the Republicans have control of? There is literally nothing to stop Trump doing what he wants now. There's not even anybody to temper his madness.

Nothing wrong with a dump though. I remember going to the Hammersmith Apollo 15 years ago to see the Specials. The floors were so sticky my shoes kept coming off. I miss gigs full stop.

Pretty bog standard medium sized venue isn't it? The Arena is shit, hope at some stage they build the new one, although that's in county Durham (Sunderland) unfortunately.

Fair play for that. Personally I'm massively uncomfortable with using small majorities to fix democracy in your favour, but I see the logic in sinking to your opponents level. Shows the system is broken, even though its a written constitution. Talking of which, not only does Trump have the trifecta, the supreme court and the popular vote mandate, he now has no democrat opponent and crucially nobody in his own party to stop him doing literally anything he wants. He has no excuses, nobody to blame for stopping him like last time. The only slight bit of hope that brings is he owns his own performance. So aye, he needs to deport 12 million people ASAP and give Putin Ukraine tomorrow.

A federal Europe would be my dream too. Most people don't want that though. We didn't even want ot be in the EU as it is, a lot of Brits would genuinely prefer to be the 51st State. Never got the love affair personally.

To keep my mind off Trump, I still enjoy mackems getting upset by Newcastle. Doherty is a geordie.

I aslo wonder if Biden could have been more proactive in getting Trump locked up for insurrection. I don't know the mechanics of it though.

That to me is the biggest offering any politcian could make though. Lets recall Trump: Is a pathalogical liar ✅ Is an adulterer ✅ Is a felon (criminal case) ✅ Is a rapist (civil case) ✅ Is a coward (draft dodger) ✅ Is a traitor (insurrection) ✅ Is a narcissist ✅ Is a misogynyst ✅ Was mates with Epstein ✅ Is a con man ✅ Is a racist ✅ Is in the control of Putin ✅ Shits his pants ✅ Has threatened to end democracy ✅ Wants to fuck his daughter ✅ Is a successful businessman ❌

I don't care how low information voters are, I will never understand the appeal of Trump in terms of simple moral decency apart from anything else. I can see Biden/Harris not appealing in the toxic morasse of social media and with real inequality and cost of living concerns, but Trump as the answer for the MAJORITY of Americans? Fuck me, no. I've said before though comparing the US with the UK is pointless. Superficially some similarites but culturally, demographically, literally different continents. I have to believe we are not like them, that the majority here would not go for Farage. Johnson was bad enough but at least the system worked and he was turfed out. If I'm wrong and we are also morally bankrupt, I find that the most profoundly depressing thing of all.

Apologies for using the plural there TP, that was clumsy and it puts things into perspective of this somewhat esoteric shit vs. real every day shit. But I still think we have to care, otherwise all normality is lost. I'm not going to stop caring about lying, it a scourge on society and will lead to its death. I fully understand it doesn't mean I will change anythhing or have any legacy. Nobody does in the end, the Universe doesn't care. Anyway, that's enough from here now for a while, had my therapy. But like it or not, we are going to get this gurning orange cretin on our screens daily for many more years. This thread will not die, Gemmill will not stop posting. The few dormant years when this thread ws quiet was a relief.