manc-mag

foul throw.

Where is accadacca with his prediction for next season more importantly? He was pretty much clairvoyant in the past even when virtually everyone to a man was shouting him down.

I'm a little more discriminating than that and say very definitely 'woman' tbh.

Some of us have only recently finished celebrating tbh.

Some of us have only recently finished celebrating tbh.

Neither am I. I was just saying he was one of the best (probably the best) player last season. On that basis I'll be gutted when they eventually do cash in (January is my guess btw). Buy in summer, sell in January as a broad rule of thumb.

Why does this feel like it's going to be a loooooooooooong window?

"Derrs more to Paul McGrath den diss!"

Aye, but equally the proponents of the 'old model' don't even recognise debt as a problem. Even when credit isn't available. I mean that literally as well, they don't even acknowledge it, I've witnessed it for years on here now. So that bit won't bother them so much (or at least it shouldn't if they're being consistent).

Aye, and that's the thing. To assume it will (or even err towards the view it will) is fanciful. Hopefully it will but you'd be off your head to see it as already having taken full effect or likely to continue. Additionally, in my view, the Ashley model absolutely relies on the incumbent manager being a 100% 'yes man'. Which restricts your field of good calibre managers considerably (if we're discussing continual progress)

CT man, you'll choose to believe the propaganda machine whatever's going on. Fwiw, I don't think he's here to 'milk the club' as some hysterics claim, cos to be perfectly honest he's a bloke that can make far more money focusing his efforts elsewhere. You may have a point about his ego being indirectly good for the club, however the bottom line there is he can change his mind as soon as the wind changes so you can't go banking on that as an enduring force for progress. I'll subscribe to the view he's seeing what progress you can make with a minimal transfer fund employing a very focused scouting policy. Again fwiw I think if that goes well, it can lift you to about 6th or 7th (or if very very well, 5th). Beyond that, realistically you do need mega money (ie money beyond the club's natural resources) and theres zero interest in it for him there at all. Best case scenario there is a sale and a new owner with focused ambition (ie an element of which at his own financial risk). So after your opening line, you virtually agree with me.... This idea of some new owner arriving and being able to spend us into the top four is just a pipe dream tbh, the only possible way we are going to get back there is by continually building and improving (a bit like we seem to be doing now) and by having a very good manager. This is where if anywhere, Ashley will have his biggest challenge. Will he ever be able to sit back again and trust a manager with his millions. I can see the current set up getting us into Europe, but I dont see Pardew having enough about him for the real big time or Ashley being able to relinquish control even if he does bring in a really good manager. The only possible scenario that I think Ashley would work with if he decided to go for the top four at some stage, would be is a return to the "director of football" scenario. I agree to an extent in theory, but I'm saying the practical chances of this happening are vastly undermined by the fact he could wake up tomorrow and do something fucking idiotic on a mood swing. The point about it needing to be gradual, incremental improvement (in bold) is one that I agree with, but it's equally the bit that I think is most vulnerable to Ashley's frankly horrendous capriciousness.

CT man, you'll choose to believe the propaganda machine whatever's going on. Fwiw, I don't think he's here to 'milk the club' as some hysterics claim, cos to be perfectly honest he's a bloke that can make far more money focusing his efforts elsewhere. You may have a point about his ego being indirectly good for the club, however the bottom line there is he can change his mind as soon as the wind changes so you can't go banking on that as an enduring force for progress. I'll subscribe to the view he's seeing what progress you can make with a minimal transfer fund employing a very focused scouting policy. Again fwiw I think if that goes well, it can lift you to about 6th or 7th (or if very very well, 5th). Beyond that, realistically you do need mega money (ie money beyond the club's natural resources) and theres zero interest in it for him there at all. Best case scenario there is a sale and a new owner with focused ambition (ie an element of which at his own financial risk).

Must have heard Wigfield there about two years before it came out in the UK then. That's my firm recollection of it.

What year was this? We used to go to Estartit laste 80's early 90's to the campsite you're on about. No word of alie one night me we're going back to the mobile home and there's some kid lieing on the grass pissed and asleep. I only remember this as my mam and dad had a massive barney over it. My mam was a nurse at the time and wanted to help him while my faffa's opinion was 'sod him, let him sleep it off, nowt to do with us.' He was a caring man at times. I went to Estartit in 96 and 97 on a campsite, probably the same one, at the end of a big dirt track? It was huge one called Castel Montgri or something. We went there a few times on the bus to stay in the mobile home as it was the only way we could afford to go abroad. *cue violin music* To be fair though we had a fantastic time there as kids, the place was massive. That's the badger.

What year was this? We used to go to Estartit laste 80's early 90's to the campsite you're on about. No word of alie one night me we're going back to the mobile home and there's some kid lieing on the grass pissed and asleep. I only remember this as my mam and dad had a massive barney over it. My mam was a nurse at the time and wanted to help him while my faffa's opinion was 'sod him, let him sleep it off, nowt to do with us.' He was a caring man at times. I went to Estartit in 96 and 97 on a campsite, probably the same one, at the end of a big dirt track? Must be the same one. Biggest swimming pool in Europe they reckon it had. Had two others besides that one; one next to the shops where the water was permanently green and one which was fucking miles up the side of the mountain, 'La Basa' the last pool was called.

So 288 - 132 - 70 - 27 = 59 million that Mike Ashley's put into the club since 2007? Not an inconsiderable amount of money but some of that is presumably for a) paying compo to managers and their staff that have been sacked/forced out paying the cost of getting relegated from the PL c) paying high wages of players which were signed under his ownership (Smith, Collo, Gutti, etc) I'm not including transfer errors here like having to pay compo for Gutti's Bosman or the Xisco signing. So 229 to buy the club and 59 mill to keep it solvent? With a chunk of the 59 mill needed because of Ashley's own errors. Or is that just too simplistic? 59 mill sounds less impressive than 288 mill, although obviously it's 59 mill of his own money not a bank's, so good on him. I expect he'll want that back at some point.... Purchase cost was £132Mill, which has been leveraged against the club, not sure it should really be called “debt” per se as it was the cost of purchasing the shares and as such is really the “value of the club”. It’s just the same as if anyone else had bought the shares, it’s the minimum cost anyone would have to pay to buy the club. The £70Mill is additional money he had no option but to “put in” due to change of ownership clauses on the existing debts. Whilst that debt hasn’t gone away the benefit is that he’s paid that off as a loan, interest free and unsecured, saves the club £7Mill a year interest and the capital sum of the stadium expansion mortgage (£45Mill) which was due for repayment in 2013 is no longer an issue. It could be argued that as it’s a debt to the owner and as such to all intents and purposes the club is the owner and visa versa, it’s not really a debt at all, but I wouldn’t go that far as no doubt he will want it back at some point. That said unlike virtually all the other owners who are “in deep” he’s not charging interest and hasn’t secured his lending on club assets, that’s an important point. He therefore has no guarantee, he’ll get it back. The £27Mill transfer fee’s “owed” had to come from somewhere so in essence he’s covered some of that, as well, in his subsidies to the bottom line. Manager compensation (Alardarse and KK) was £10Mill IMO the only thing you can really discount from his “subsidy” is the original purchase price, he could have tried to refinance the £70Mill against the club, but he didn’t, he really did “pay it off” it’s now technically his risk/liability. Any element of the figure which is attributable to the purchase price of the club can simply be ignored fwiw, so he gets neither a) the plaudits for 'pumping this money in' (blind, pro-Ashley propagandists) or b ) the blame for putting the club into 'even greater debt' (pro-old guard hysteria). Re: the £70 million of existing debts, if this only became repayable on demand where there was a change of owner, then the moderate view is that the last lot didn't have the club at 'death's door' financially speaking as is portrayed by the pro-Ashley propaganda machine. Ie it wasn't about to go instantly bust. And if Ashley had failed to appreciate £70 million was going to become instantly repayable on acquisition, then he's only got himself to blame as per the failure to do due diligence point, which doesn't need to be rehearsed any further. For completeness however, the club was being run at a loss and whichever way you slice it this does become a problem when credit dries up-which it ultimately did. In this sense, it is better to have somebody with Ashely's financial clout transferring the debts to himself instead of the last owners, who simply would never have countenanced that in a million years. ie we weren't about to go instantly bust when Ashley took over, however we were in a lot of debt that we were having to service via loans-which is a game you usually play by consistently re-structuring. This model fails when credit providers disappear. Basically, it's clear as day Ashley is attempting to do things on a shoestring now, but then it is his cash on the line I suppose. For me Ashley's main suit isn't what he's ploughed in, it's simply historical context. Anyone thinking that the old guard would be throwing money around these days (ie their own money) compared to Ashley is off their swede. It's the wrong argument altogether (not that that will change anything on here). Someone else might come in and fancy having a speculative punt with their own coin, but Ashley won't and in the present tense the last lot wouldn't either. If I see some sensible acquisitions and a team that wants to play for the shirt, that'll do me for now. That's just being realistic about the times we live in. The good thing is, I actually think getting a few right minded and hungry players in, with a decent scouting policy, can get you a good few places up this current league. After that, who knows, perhaps we will get bought. Then its down to fate once again.

Never realised you were younger than me? That's a bit depressing. Happy Birthday you big stat botherer!

Can't beat a bit of Partridge on a Monday morning.

One of the best posts of recent times that one you're referencing above. Couldn't look at that picture without cracking up.

As bad a piece from the Ashley apologist end of the spectrum as some of the rose tinted pish that gets printed about the last lot tbh. Truth as ever somewhere in the middle.

Tbf I don't blame the posters for the crazy prices in this thread, I think a lot of it is down to AgentAxeman.

Fucking class. Your poster transfer value has just ballooned and Pud is insinuating that you don't fit into the long term plans for the board.

The engine is running by the way, I said I'd drive you there myself.

All I want is a room somewhere. Far away from the cold night air. With one enormous chair. Aow, wouldn't it be loverly? Please edit the poll accordingly.