PaddockLad

Not as much as in the riot strewn 80s. Most of the riots were caused by the ill treatment of ethnic minorities by the police, as were last summers riots, again under a Tory-lead government. Labour's extreme trial detention laws were brought in under the banner "the war on terror", which is a very different thing.

I thought that when it the panel was set up to reveiw the documents there was a school of thought that there would be something about the meeting in Sheffield betwen the SYP and Thatcher and it would implicate her in the cover up?....there was nothing found, but the cabinet discussing the Taylor Report was minuted and it was in there, and it says that Thatcher stated that the suspicion of a SYP cover up which the report hinted at was "depressingly familiar". Am no fan of the woman, if she was aware that the SYP were complete cunts she had pretty much allowed tham to act like that for the whole preceading decade in which she'd been PM and used them to smash the miners.

The only thing they have is her press monkey Bernard Ingham (son of a Nottighamshire miner...who'd have thunk it??!!) saying years after that senior SYP officer's informed them that a drunk mob had stormed the gates. I've got a feeling that the meeting was found not to have been minuted, but any records couldve been removed before all the documents were handed over to the Hillsborough panel.

The thing we can thank Labour for on this is the freedom of information act which gave the families access to the documents which Tuesdays findings were based on. Without that, all this would still be under the carpet. And obviously no politician of any hue wouldve dared to look into it without the huge pressure the bereaved families (and pretty much the whole of Merseyside) put them under. Theyd all have been perfectly happy to continue to bury their heads in the sand.

theyre the same thing mate Wimbledon is the worlds premier tennis tournament, I'd like to hear an argument against it being so if you don't mind

True. Cycling isnt my strong point

Wimbledon is the tdf for tennis, oroginal and best. the term "grand slam" is misused all the time. A "grand slam" used to be the term for winning all 4 major tennis tournaments in one year, and I think only Rod Laver has done it, although am not entirely sure on that.Lazy journo's use the word "slam" when they mean "major tournamnet" the equivalent in cycling is the tdf,vuelta, giro and whatever the next most prsetigious one is in one season....anyone ever done that? The thing about Murray's and Wiggins's acheivements outside of the Olympics this year is no Brit has ever done what Wiggins has done, and the last Brit to have done what Murray has done was so long ago that its pretty much irrelevent (30 odd years before the "open" era in tennis began). So both are equal on that score iyam. Both won Olympic gold this summer. So its tricky to judge whos done better this summer. If Wiggins and his mates hadnt fucked the road race up he'd be top dog. Neither of the wins outside of the Olympics were on the BBC either, so theres no advantage there. Gonna be tight for SPOTY between them. Thing is, you just know they'll be a huge internet campaign north of the border to vote for Murray. Wiggins will have the support of serious cyclists and birds who fancy him, so I think a nation of 5 million sports' fans will shade it v veiwers of a popular yet still minority sport.

Whats the damage mate?...is Fraser driving the train??!!

Ok fair enough. explain this then: They're not at the front of the queue of people who're to blame, but they're definitely in there. The bit in italics was posted by you half an hour ago. I agree ticketless fans were present. Show me the evidence for stating they were in some way to blame as you claimed earlier.

but you started out saying "There were still fans without tickets crushing into the ground." Correct me if I'm wrong here, but because ticketless fans were present you think they must be in some way culpable for the events that followed when theres not a scrap of evidence to support this?

None. And haven't been for many years. Apart from a fellah called Kelvin McKenzie....does he still write a column for them?.....

No, there have been drunks at every match I've ever been to. Ticketless fans were almost certainly present too,again just going on my own experiance and especially in those days, the season before FA cup semi finals were screened live for the first time. But theyve not been found, even anecdotally, to be in any way the cause or the blame for what happened according to the evidence of an inquest, the Taylor Report and todays independant review of all documents related to the matter.

Strikes me as today's findings largely give the lie to those sort of stories though. Theres been a huge cover up, and part of it was the "ticketless, drunken, mob" story, which began circulating on the Saturday evening of the disaster. Today has said thats all bollocks. The coroner ordered the blood alcohol level of every corpse lying in the Hillborough gym was taken on, as far as the panel could tell, Saturday evening or early Sunday morning. When 2 bodies were found with zero alcohol in their bloodstreams, the national crime computer was accessed to see if they had a criminal record. Why were they doing all this? Your scouse mates are miss-informed according to the evidence of today. The largely honest and decent officers who were pulling bodies from the Leppings Lane terraces are victims of all this too, no doubt emotionally in a huge way due to what actually happened but they also had any statement or notebook entry which in any way painted the SYP in apoor light doctored by others, and then presented to Lord Taylors team.

Am not an expert on the intimate details of the Taylor Report. Does that sentance actually come from it? Or possibly was it mentioned in the (on the evidnce of today, largly discredited) inquest?

So in what way were the fans to blame?

David Duckinfield was in charge at the stadium that day and lives happily(?) retired in Christchurch, Dorset.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-19570810 Pretty damning by the sounds of it....the West Midlands constabulary were brought in to reveiw the way the SYP handled it and it was they who changed a lot of police statements and notes, to shift the blame on to "a drunken mob". Wonder who asked for the most corrupt force in the country at the time to get involved and possibly why them in particular were asked?....

I think thats true of a number of them....I think theyres also a fair proportion of the bereaved families that have moved on as well and have nothing to do with whats going on today. Thing is, theres no right and wrong way to grieve. And if you're of the finger pointing nature where someone or some group of people just have blamed then this is the end result if you feel theres been a cover up. I think the people of Merseyside are generally on the side of those pushing for this, but I can sort of understand that people just think they should move on as well. But its difficult to say that to the now elderly mothers of the lads and lasses who lost their lives that day. If they want the real truth, they should have it iyam.

There was some of their lot trying to kick it off on Trent Bridge that day, think they pretty much succeded. Its mad nowadays, the merest hint of trouble and theres all sorts of old radgies coming flying out the closet Hope that wasnt you Bob..

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-merseyside-19543964 Hillsborough files being made public today...cant see anyone leaving anything too incriminating in them so it might be a bit of a let down for the families...

Get Carter and The Wicker Man on itv4 tonight...Scum last night...

You dont see the contradiction. The same way as you said Mike Ashley would spend a fortune this summer, as "that is how he rolls", that might even be early on in the approval rating thread. You definetly posted that, because I remember pointing out to you at the time that that was a massive contradiction too

But you're the one slating fuck out of the bloke!

Pardew likes having him around, thats for sure.Interestingly KK didnt, but he akso didnt need the sort of reflected "Geordie folk hero" status that Shola brings to Pardews party, he had that in spades himself. But we all know we should ahve signed a striker this summer to help take the workload off Demba and Cisse. We didn't so the situation is less than ideal. I'm actually very fond of him myself, but you can't have your cake and eat it on this one CT, slating the player but praising the regime that keeps him in the squad is Olympic standard flip-flopping

it certainly isn't, but it does approach something of an ideal situation when you can criticise the sympton of a problem and praise the actual cause of it to the heavens, yet fail to see the contradiction