Allardyce isn't in...yet

[Howaythetoon 0]

If you read my original post, I never said he would come. The point being he is of a profile and an experience and a familiarity of the Premiership/NUFC to warrant ASKING. Furthermore, to mitigate the risk of doing a Gullit, I suggested a 1 year trial contract, which I believe is possibly agreeable to both sides.

 

He once played in the Premiership, which is a whole lot different to managing in the Premiership. Lets give Vinnie Jones a call, after all, he has no club management experience, but being a big shot movie star now, he has the profile... utter bollocks. Profile for what? Why does a manager need a profile to manage Newcastle?

 

Achievement? There is quite rightly nothing to compare between the two. In one measure, Fat Sam has achieved nothing compared to Klinsman, for another measure it is the reverse. I dismiss this as an irrelevance.

 

In management, Klinsman hasn't acheived anything compared to Big Sam. What the two achieved in their careers as footballers means fuck all in relation to management. I dismiss that as an irrelevance. The fact you dismiss managerial achievements though says a lot, it is no wonder you want the club to appoint anyone when you dismis such important stuff as meaning nothing. Lets give it to Zippy, he'll keep the mongs entertained and in Bungle, George and Jeffry, that could be some backroom team there.

 

Not risking a foreigner? That viewpoint quit rightly gets laughed off most places that I see it, and is as bad as Fat Fred's Geordie nation shite.

 

Agreed, but you can't influence Freddy Shepherd to go foreign when he is so stuck on British/Geordie is best first. Never gonna change, it is even pointless discussing foreign managers while he's in control of the club.

 

As for not risking a manager without experience, why not? Christ, it's not like we are risking not getting a CL place if we don't go for Fat Sam is it? Whereas if we actually appointed a high profile manager who knows where we might get to? Your mentality just strikes me as .... safe. Keegan said it well, some people at this club don't know how to win.

 

Why not? Lets see now, well our finances mean money could well be tight so we need someone who can work on a limited budget, someone who knows the markets if you like. Klinsman hasn't bought or sold a player yet, but hey, what the fuck, he has a big profile. You can't be serious... This is a critical period in the club's history, we can't afford to gamble. Don't get me wrong, I'm not adverse to thinking outside the box, but there is a time and a place to do that and looking at all the issues and concerns at United right now, this just isn't the time or place to be so brave because there is a hell of a lot to lose, more ground on the top 6 for one, bums on seats, our finances are a mess, clubs like Bolton and Reading are finishing above us, Spurs, Villa and even the mackems are looking good for the future. To go out and appoint a manager with no club experience, never mind Premiership experience (management) and ask that man to overhaul every single area of the club, deliver top 6 football and good cup runs, entertain the fans, buy and sell well and maybe, just maybe, win a trophy, is bordering on madness because there is nothing concrete to suggest he could, just hope and some daft stuff about profile or whatever. At least with Big Sam you know he can overhaul every aspect of a club and can consistently deliver high league finishes which he has done for Bolton pretty much since their first season back in the Premiership. 8, 6, 8 and another top 8 finish this season most likely. All this on a transfer budget of zero and at a small club like Bolton who can't even fill their stadium. You can't blame the club for wondering now what could he do here at Newcastle can you and you can't really not see logic behind this move, if indeed he does join us. For once this would be a common sense appointment based on sound logic and good reason, an appointment not to appease fans with sexy football, or to rid the club of ill discipline, but to cover all the areas in which the club needs to sort out and recover in, while being able enough to finish in the top 6 and manage on what will be a reduced budget due to the financial mess we are in.

 

You go ahead and appoint Klinsman and after a year of Gullit like football, don't fucking whinge because he wasn't what you hoped. It isn't about that now, it's about what WE NEED. The club, not us. I want great football, and all that crap, but what the club needs is far more important - a complete overhaul and there is only one man available who has shown he can do that.

 

As for Mourinho, I'm pretty sure we covered that chestnut, so don't even try and bring it up in support of your frankly weak case.

 

Aye, he's no Klinsman like

 

 

I'm holding you to every single word in that post a year from now, seeing as you seem to think it's such a shoe-in. The man you paint is a positive footballing Superman, with infinite abilities. He has managed Bolton, so what? If you're so desperate for a proven manager at the highest level why not approach Strachan, or anyone who has done something even close to managing a club the size of NUFC. Bolton is a small town club where Fat Sam was king of the castle. At NUFC there are hundreds of cooks to spoil the broth, and in a few months time, his achievements will mean jack shit.

 

Christ had you been in charge we would never have ended up with Keegan, lest you forget the circumstances of his appointment. Your post positively oozes mediocrity and lack of ambition. You even cite the MACKEMS *spit* as an example, forgetting they took a gamble and appointed an untried manager, when arguably if it had gone wrong they would have disappeared forever. For every experienced manager you name I can name one that has completely fucked up a different job after years of sterling service at a different club. There is NOTHING to risk from trying something for a year and it not working and parting ways, every bastard year we piss money up the wall so what's the point in pretending it's not going to happen with Fat Sam. You honestly value a dead cert top 8 finish that much? Or do you think he's going to resurrect the expensive talent we have collected? You think Fat Sam could attract Klose to the team? Or Ballack maybe? Well maybe in a few years time.

 

As for achievements, Klinsman has already managed a team in the World Cup, something the man you have just written a page and half about would gladly drop the NUFC job light a lead weight for.

 

Ballack? Klose?

 

Makes every single point you make redundant.

 

That and I can't be arsed. I rate Big Sam, you don't, fair enough, agree to disagree?

 

Wager right here and now though that Big Sam if appointed and giving time and patience (not so much money) will be a success - top 6 consistently - but more importantly, laying the foundations that this club so badly requires at this moment in time, so that in the coming years, when we are in a position to attract the top managers to take us to another level, that man will have all the tools to succeed at that level.

 

Someone on N.O made a great point about how in today's game you just can't go from where we are at into the top four and competing for big prizes over night (especially after the catalogue of mismanagement that has went on at United), it has to happen in stages. Couldn't agree more. There is no easy fix. Unless new owners come in and invest millions into the team and basically do a Chelsea by going out and looking for a top top manager, it is going to take years to turn this club around, years.

 

With that in mind, you'll want to appoint a manager proven in the art of rebuilding a club not someone who could do it which is what you'll be hoping from a Klinsman, but HAS and that man is Sam Allardyce. What his appointment would also mean is an admission by the board that they now accept the club needs a complete overhaul and that in itself is cause for hope and optimism and another major reason why I hope it is indeed SA because he will only join the club if he gets full control and he won't stand for any crap from the Chairman, and I doubt FS would dare interfere either.

 

The impact just that alone could have on our club could be huge man. I would take right here and now 2 more years of mid-table medicority if someone said to me at the end of it all NUFC off the pitch will be bang up to speed and equipped to compete and succeed thereafter. Like under Sir Bobby finishing 11th twice before finishing in the top 5 3 times in succession.... only his world came crashing down because once the money dried up and the entertaining football, there was nowt else in place to fall back on like scouting, the academy, a network of coaches and the rest of the things Big Sam will bring to the club.

 

These things are far more important to me and our future I believe than some fly by night short term success or fancy football and false fucking hope which is what the past 10 years have been all about basically. Just think in those 10 years our club has been overtaken in almost every fashion by Bolton, fucking Bolton.

 

All down to Big Sam!

Edited May 8, 2007 by Howaythetoon

[Super_Steve_Howey 0]

Well you really have fallen in love with Fat Sam, that's without doubt. I honestly am dumbfounded that you think he is the only man in the world capable of doing anything right in the world of football management. Not that I'm even sure what he is actually going to do, because when you strip out all the flowery missives about restructuring and rebuilding, what is he actually going to do that any other new manager wouldn't do anyway? Most of the initiatives and regimes that I've heard that Sam espouses don't take 5 years of mediocre football to achieve, they can be done in a few months. What takes TIME is rebuilding a TEAM.

 

Half of this amazing setup that you keep fawning on about is actually just having the right personel, and will be out the door when he leaves, which he will. I think what you really mean in your ramblings about structures but haven't figured out yet is a Director of Football and the overarching direction irrespective of who is manager that it brings, which Sam will definitely not be in Fat Fred's world. Even the great Arsene Wenger can't do both jobs. The only thing that needs changing in this club is personel, we have all the facilities a top club could want for.

[peasepud 59]

The only thing that needs changing in this club is personel, we have all the facilities a top club could want for.

 

And perceptions, values, mentality. Numerous things need changing within the club, they arent always things you can see or measure. This club has been going downhill for years, we've tried the big name signings, sexy football managers, big name managers and last ditch "naebody else wants it and hes on the cheap" managers and none of it has worked.

 

Its time for a change of tack and new direction, its time to build things slowly and carefully and (unfortunately) its time to know our place in the football world and that place is upper mid-table nothing more. We may believe we can compete with ManUre, Chelski, Inter etc but we cant and never will, at least not without a total change and take over from another big money investor (something which is franly unlikely in the near future).

 

Until then we need to know our place and that place is with a manager of the calibre of Allardyce. Theres nothing to attract the massive names, we dont have 500million to spend to win the League Cup or anything to offer the Wengers of this world.

[Super_Steve_Howey 0]

The only thing that needs changing in this club is personel, we have all the facilities a top club could want for.

 

And perceptions, values, mentality. Numerous things need changing within the club, they arent always things you can see or measure. This club has been going downhill for years, we've tried the big name signings, sexy football managers, big name managers and last ditch "naebody else wants it and hes on the cheap" managers and none of it has worked.

 

Its time for a change of tack and new direction, its time to build things slowly and carefully and (unfortunately) its time to know our place in the football world and that place is upper mid-table nothing more. We may believe we can compete with ManUre, Chelski, Inter etc but we cant and never will, at least not without a total change and take over from another big money investor (something which is franly unlikely in the near future).

 

Until then we need to know our place and that place is with a manager of the calibre of Allardyce. Theres nothing to attract the massive names, we dont have 500million to spend to win the League Cup or anything to offer the Wengers of this world.

 

That is just too depressing for words.

[Happy Face 29]

I wanted Roeder as a caretaker and, as I was well aware of his limitations, did not want him as the full time manager. No contradiction there.

 

Interesting that the Allardyce nay sayers are so far unable to come up with a feasible alternative and are unable to name a premiership manager with a record worse than Roeder's.

 

That square peg doesn't fit that round hole, let's try this triangular one.

 

Nah, just as well leaving the square one tbh.

 

Another question dodged there, HF.

 

See the bold bit. That's where I stand.

 

Having gotten us in this position, if possible I'd like to see Shepherd offer Sven or Houllier double what he's offering Sam, or even Ranieri (one and a half times), is that feasible? Maybe, maybe not, but I'm not going to start enjoying trifle because it's the only thing in the fridge.

[Guest alex]

Absolutely no argument provided whatsoever as to why Roeder is on a par with Allardyce I note

[Happy Face 29]

Absolutely no argument provided whatsoever as to why Roeder is on a par with Allardyce I note

 

Apart from the stuff I've been saying for 4 days about Bolton having a worse defence than us, how if they lost their main striker for the season they'd have scored less goals than us (hypothetical as it is you can't say Owen wouldn't have made a difference this year), how in 7 years he's managed to finish just one position higher than Roeder did last year but twice finished lower than Roeder did this year.

[Isegrim 8941]

This is a critical period in the club's history, we can't afford to gamble. Don't get me wrong, I'm not adverse to thinking outside the box, but there is a time and a place to do that and looking at all the issues and concerns at United right now, this just isn't the time or place to be so brave because there is a hell of a lot to lose, more ground on the top 6 for one, bums on seats, our finances are a mess, clubs like Bolton and Reading are finishing above us, Spurs, Villa and even the mackems are looking good for the future.

 

I don't get this 'critical period' stuff. If there is a time to gamble, then when if not now? It was a rather big gamble to appoint Keegan when the club was really on the brink of collapsing. Now we have already lost ground to the top teams and are stuck in mediocrity, but the likes of Spurs, Villa etc aren't miles away and this season demonstrated that you can appoint the worst manager and have bad luck with injuries and still won't get relegated as there is always a bunch of teams who are even worse. So the worst scenario with gambling is rather to get stuck where you are and not move forward at all. On the other hand a inspirational appointment - as it was Keegan back then - could have a catapulting effect. The structure might be rotten, but the environment of the club is good or at least far better than of most other teams in the Premierleague - it just needs someone to be able to fulfil it. Therefore I'd had gambled on someone like Klinsmann who I think has the potential to be a great manager at the right club sharing his ambition. I see it as a missed opportunity.

[Guest alex]

Absolutely no argument provided whatsoever as to why Roeder is on a par with Allardyce I note

 

Apart from the stuff I've been saying for 4 days about Bolton having a worse defence than us, how if they lost their main striker for the season they'd have scored less goals than us (hypothetical as it is you can't say Owen wouldn't have made a difference this year), how in 7 years he's managed to finish just one position higher than Roeder did last year but twice finished lower than Roeder did this year.

Ok then. I reckon Bolton's defence is still better than ours this season. I bet it has cost them less games despite them conceding more in the league. Could you see them losing 5-0 at home to Birmingham for example? The striker thing is hypothetical (as you say) but it's a fair point. However, the other comparisons are utterly ridiculous. You point to one part of a season under Roeder (i.e. last year) and compare that against what Allardyce has done. What about Roeder's record at other clubs? And here this season - does that not count? Newcastle is probably the best managerial job Roeder has done in terms of assessing it did overall and in his one full season (almost) we're on course for what is statistically our worst in the Premiership. Says it all, he's a shit manager who's done a poor job everywhere he's been. More or less the opposite of what Allardyce has done.

[Super_Steve_Howey 0]

This is a critical period in the club's history, we can't afford to gamble. Don't get me wrong, I'm not adverse to thinking outside the box, but there is a time and a place to do that and looking at all the issues and concerns at United right now, this just isn't the time or place to be so brave because there is a hell of a lot to lose, more ground on the top 6 for one, bums on seats, our finances are a mess, clubs like Bolton and Reading are finishing above us, Spurs, Villa and even the mackems are looking good for the future.

 

I don't get this 'critical period' stuff. If there is a time to gamble, then when if not now? It was a rather big gamble to appoint Keegan when the club was really on the brink of collapsing. Now we have already lost ground to the top teams and are stuck in mediocrity, but the likes of Spurs, Villa etc aren't miles away and this season demonstrated that you can appoint the worst manager and have bad luck with injuries and still won't get relegated as there is always a bunch of teams who are even worse. So the worst scenario with gambling is rather to get stuck where you are and not move forward at all. On the other hand a inspirational appointment - as it was Keegan back then - could have a catapulting effect. The structure might be rotten, but the environment of the club is good or at least far better than of most other teams in the Premierleague - it just needs someone to be able to fulfil it. Therefore I'd had gambled on someone like Klinsmann who I think has the potential to be a great manager at the right club sharing his ambition. I see it as a missed opportunity.

 

here here

[Gemmill 35474]

By the way, HTT, they interviewed a bloke on the radio this morning about the German league. When asked what Hitzfeld had done since joining Bayern, the response was "Nothing. Shambles, and he should never have gone back. It's very clear that he's not reaching the players on the pitch and is totally incapable of getting them to do what he wants them to do."

 

Not Otto, Shirley!?

[Renton 18038]

Absolutely no argument provided whatsoever as to why Roeder is on a par with Allardyce I note

 

Apart from the stuff I've been saying for 4 days about Bolton having a worse defence than us, how if they lost their main striker for the season they'd have scored less goals than us (hypothetical as it is you can't say Owen wouldn't have made a difference this year), how in 7 years he's managed to finish just one position higher than Roeder did last year but twice finished lower than Roeder did this year.

Ok then. I reckon Bolton's defence is still better than ours this season. I bet it has cost them less games despite them conceding more in the league. Could you see them losing 5-0 at home to Birmingham for example? The striker thing is hypothetical (as you say) but it's a fair point. However, the other comparisons are utterly ridiculous. You point to one part of a season under Roeder (i.e. last year) and compare that against what Allardyce has done. What about Roeder's record at other clubs? And here this season - does that not count? Newcastle is probably the best managerial job Roeder has done in terms of assessing it did overall and in his one full season (almost) we're on course for what is statistically our worst in the Premiership. Says it all, he's a shit manager who's done a poor job everywhere he's been. More or less the opposite of what Allardyce has done.

 

Exactly. HF seems unable to comprehend two things in these threads:

Time's change and we are not the same club in terms of finance or playing status as we were under Robson. Hence many people have changed their mind's about Allardyce's suitability.

Bolton and Newcastle are not comparable clubs in terms of resources. Hence it is ridiculous to compare the track records of Allardyce and Roeder so simplistically.

[Renton 18038]

By the way, HTT, they interviewed a bloke on the radio this morning about the German league. When asked what Hitzfeld had done since joining Bayern, the response was "Nothing. Shambles, and he should never have gone back. It's very clear that he's not reaching the players on the pitch and is totally incapable of getting them to do what he wants them to do."

 

Not Otto, Shirley!?

 

Yep, I heard that. Narrow escape tbh.

[Guest alex]

Sounds like just the man for NUFC.

[Isegrim 8941]

By the way, HTT, they interviewed a bloke on the radio this morning about the German league. When asked what Hitzfeld had done since joining Bayern, the response was "Nothing. Shambles, and he should never have gone back. It's very clear that he's not reaching the players on the pitch and is totally incapable of getting them to do what he wants them to do."

 

Not Otto, Shirley!?

 

A lot of fans are already getting on his back, saying it was his biggest mistake to come back again (or the board's mistake to offer him a new contract on the back of a win against Real Madrid). To be fair to him Hitzfeld took over a team totally in shambles, but after the loss against Milan could do nothing to motivate them for the reminder of the season.

 

They are now "planning" to totally overhaul the team with the likes of Pizarro, Santa Cruz, Karimi shown the door, some other players leaving or retiring as well.

[Happy Face 29]

Absolutely no argument provided whatsoever as to why Roeder is on a par with Allardyce I note

 

Apart from the stuff I've been saying for 4 days about Bolton having a worse defence than us, how if they lost their main striker for the season they'd have scored less goals than us (hypothetical as it is you can't say Owen wouldn't have made a difference this year), how in 7 years he's managed to finish just one position higher than Roeder did last year but twice finished lower than Roeder did this year.

Ok then. I reckon Bolton's defence is still better than ours this season. I bet it has cost them less games despite them conceding more in the league. Could you see them losing 5-0 at home to Birmingham for example? The striker thing is hypothetical (as you say) but it's a fair point. However, the other comparisons are utterly ridiculous. You point to one part of a season under Roeder (i.e. last year) and compare that against what Allardyce has done. What about Roeder's record at other clubs? And here this season - does that not count? Newcastle is probably the best managerial job Roeder has done in terms of assessing it did overall and in his one full season (almost) we're on course for what is statistically our worst in the Premiership. Says it all, he's a shit manager who's done a poor job everywhere he's been. More or less the opposite of what Allardyce has done.

 

Points taken.

 

Maybe I am pushing things with respect to Allardyce being as bad as Roeder, but I think too many people are looking forward to the announcement of "Not Roeder", like people were happy with "Not Souness" at the time. The gleeeful acceptance of Allardyce is shocking when no-one (apart from Luckyluke) wanted him before and Shepherd should be lambasted for lowering expectations to such a degree.

 

With respect to your bet, there's no need, I'm sure there poor defending cost them less games, it patently has…but that’s not because their defence is better, but because they’ve been able to score more goals. We’ve let in fewer goals so our defence has performed better than theirs; they’ve scored more goals so their attack has performed better than our (emaciated) forward line.

[Isegrim 8941]

The gleeeful acceptance of Allardyce is shocking when no-one (apart from Luckyluke) wanted him before and Shepherd should be lambasted for lowering expectations to such a degree.

 

Sorry, but that's just bollocks. I've had a look at a lot of older threads yesterday and there were many who wanted him full time last time (ahead of Roeder) - myself included.

[Guest alex]

Absolutely no argument provided whatsoever as to why Roeder is on a par with Allardyce I note

 

Apart from the stuff I've been saying for 4 days about Bolton having a worse defence than us, how if they lost their main striker for the season they'd have scored less goals than us (hypothetical as it is you can't say Owen wouldn't have made a difference this year), how in 7 years he's managed to finish just one position higher than Roeder did last year but twice finished lower than Roeder did this year.

Ok then. I reckon Bolton's defence is still better than ours this season. I bet it has cost them less games despite them conceding more in the league. Could you see them losing 5-0 at home to Birmingham for example? The striker thing is hypothetical (as you say) but it's a fair point. However, the other comparisons are utterly ridiculous. You point to one part of a season under Roeder (i.e. last year) and compare that against what Allardyce has done. What about Roeder's record at other clubs? And here this season - does that not count? Newcastle is probably the best managerial job Roeder has done in terms of assessing it did overall and in his one full season (almost) we're on course for what is statistically our worst in the Premiership. Says it all, he's a shit manager who's done a poor job everywhere he's been. More or less the opposite of what Allardyce has done.

 

Points taken.

 

Maybe I am pushing things with respect to Allardyce being as bad as Roeder, but I think too many people are looking forward to the announcement of "Not Roeder", like people were happy with "Not Souness" at the time. The gleeeful acceptance of Allardyce is shocking when no-one (apart from Luckyluke) wanted him before and Shepherd should be lambasted for lowering expectations to such a degree.

 

With respect to your bet, there's no need, I'm sure there poor defending cost them less games, it patently has…but that’s not because their defence is better, but because they’ve been able to score more goals. We’ve let in fewer goals so our defence has performed better than theirs; they’ve scored more goals so their attack has performed better than our (emaciated) forward line.

I am pleased about the prospect of getting Allardyce as I see him as the best manager we could get (taking everything - but mainly the chairman - into consideration). I'm happy to be proven wrong. I still think Allardyce is miles ahead of Roeder though.

[Happy Face 29]

The gleeeful acceptance of Allardyce is shocking when no-one (apart from Luckyluke) wanted him before and Shepherd should be lambasted for lowering expectations to such a degree.

 

Sorry, but that's just bollocks. I've had a look at a lot of older threads yesterday and there were many who wanted him full time last time (ahead of Roeder) - myself included.

 

I've looked too. Luckyluke stood out as his biggest fan, sorry if you were too. But I've linked to the comments from several people who want him now, but didn't then. Who said all the same things about Roeder as people are saying about BIG Sam now. It's fine that people want a different manager for the different situation we're in (though I think we're very similarly positioned, certainly in terms of league placing and perhaps better off having the summer as we do for someone new to come in and sort things out) but I don't like Shepherd being able to say he gave the fans what they want...again, when most fans want his head on a stick.

 

Do we as fans want Allardyce because he's the best man for the job or because Shepherd could do a lot worse and has never displayed an ability to do any better? Accepeting that's the case is letting Shepherd off the hook IMO. Look at the Sven/Houllier/Allardyce poll.

[Guest alex]

Who wanted Roeder last time round out of interest?

[Happy Face 29]

Who wanted Roeder last time round out of interest?

 

Gemmill

[Guest alex]

Who wanted Roeder last time round out of interest?

 

Gemmill

He's fucking clueless man, he wanted Souness

[Guest Patrokles]

I'd be relatively okay with Allardyce simply because under current club ownership, there's no way we'd make an inspired/adventurous appointment a la Wenger/Benitez.

[khay 8]

Can we rename the thread to something else untill its confirmed please.

 

Thanks.

[Tom 13915]

Glenn has done a good job but im not 100% he can sustian the form.

 

I cant imagine a player like Owen wanting to listen to Roeder.

 

Err looks 50.50