Guest CabayeAye Posted October 3, 2012 Share Posted October 3, 2012 Good Examples Ant Giggs debut 17, Scholes 19 Both were good players a decade ago. But I suppose when the alternative is Valencia and Nani, you'd still play a decrepid Giggs or Scholes. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Christmas Tree 3997 Posted October 3, 2012 Author Share Posted October 3, 2012 I think the people in the know would have had a pretty good idea of how good they were going to be. Some players really flourish later on in their careers and they are mostly the ones who there was no expectations of when they were young. The ones who are really highly thought of usually break through pretty quickly. If you look at the top England players over the last few years as an example, Ferdinand, Gerrard, Terry, Lampard, Beckham, Owen, Shearer, Rooney etc all had very high expectation of them from a very young age. I think my point is some managers are more confident, more willing to take a gamble than others. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Christmas Tree 3997 Posted October 3, 2012 Author Share Posted October 3, 2012 Would rather see him gently eased in (not by you CT ) then pushed and it ends poor I'm in two minds tbh. One is what's best for him and one is what's best for me ( ie results ). As I am so convinced that solving the left would see us take off, I would probably rather see him in sooner than later. There will always be excuses regarding why one game or another isn't the right one, but his last two performances have earned him a go IMO. This is also the lad who has Gazza and Beardsley as admirers and I'm sure he is probably doing it week in, week out in training. I can understand all the very sensible reasons why Pardew might not start him, including upsetting more senior players, but at the end of the day the manager needs to put the team and result ahead of hurt feelings. Some managers wouldn't hesitate, others will wait until they are forced into it. (And then claim the glory as it being the plan all along). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Fish 8989 Posted October 3, 2012 Share Posted October 3, 2012 We haven't got the defence, the centre or the strike force sorted and you think the left wing is the solution? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brock Manson 0 Posted October 3, 2012 Share Posted October 3, 2012 Needs to start tomorrow tbh. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Christmas Tree 3997 Posted October 3, 2012 Author Share Posted October 3, 2012 We haven't got the defence, the centre or the strike force sorted and you think the left wing is the solution? You are talking about injuries, I'm not. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Christmas Tree 3997 Posted October 3, 2012 Author Share Posted October 3, 2012 Needs to start tomorrow tbh. I'm sure he will, but sometimes it's harder looking good as part of a crap team than it is as part of a good team. Just his luck he'll start Campbell as well who'll get his head on the end of nowt Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Fish 8989 Posted October 3, 2012 Share Posted October 3, 2012 You are talking about injuries, I'm not. Sorry, that sounded snippy, I was looking for clarification more than anything. Annoyed at work y'see. What I should have asked was: Given that we're still weak in the centre, defence and striker force, do you believe a leftwing more dedicated to attack would resolve some of these problems? So, we wouldn't need to worry so much about the creativity through the middle because it's all coming from the left, & the strikers won't misfire as often because the supply route is more often available, and the defence won't come under so much pressure because the ball will be in the oppo half? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Christmas Tree 3997 Posted October 3, 2012 Author Share Posted October 3, 2012 Sorry, that sounded snippy, I was looking for clarification more than anything. Annoyed at work y'see. What I should have asked was: Given that we're still weak in the centre, defence and striker force, do you believe a leftwing more dedicated to attack would resolve some of these problems? So, we wouldn't need to worry so much about the creativity through the middle because it's all coming from the left, & the strikers won't misfire as often because the supply route is more often available, and the defence won't come under so much pressure because the ball will be in the oppo half? A simplistic answer would yes, however... I get to watch the match end on from the Leazes and time and time again we might break out of defence to a midfielder and his only forward play (without hoofing) is Ben Arfa, who will then take it on. Problem is most teams have sussed this and are morse cautious towards the right. My view is that having a player on the left who could also "attack" would give the likes of Cabaye and Tiote more options when we are braking forward. Because the opposition have to be cautious on both wings, it then also gives our attackers more options to make runs and drag their defenders around a bit. Currently we are very predictable, one sided and static. People will point to Santon but as I have said before what we end up doing on the left is passing to Jonas who will be more centre left. He then runs out wide and waits for Santon to overlap. This slows the whole attack down. Another discussion would be what has Santon actually created in any of his attacks, but that's a different kettle of fish. Basically, ferguson has done in the last few games what I think we have been missing for a few years. At the end of the day I would just like to see him or a player of his ilk get a shot there. I think it will balance us up perfectly. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Fish 8989 Posted October 3, 2012 Share Posted October 3, 2012 See my problem is that I don't think he's ready (yet), see how Mclean down the road did brilliantly early doors, but now is getting shot with shit from his own fans. Albrighton at Villa is in the same boat. Wingers have the luxury of reduced workload and a little more rope than other positions. Ferguson could beat a man and get to the byline and then shank it out for a goal kick and people would Ooh, not boo. Centre mid keeps pinging balls out of play or to the oppo he'll soon get the short shrift. At the moment we're not playing well, in any position really, and while I agree he shuold be played aginst Bordeaux in the Europa, I still want our more experienced, reliable players in the league. If we were firing on all cylinders but Jonas' lack of creativity was a weak spot I'd absolutely call for something else. Right now, however, our faults lies across the board. We need the centre backs to be solid, the full backs to be mobile and positionally aware, the centre to be both snatching and pulling the strings and the strikers to be making and taking chances. These things aren't happening and throwing an inexperienced nippy winger isn't going to change that. What it would do is remove one of the hardest working players I've seen from the team and right now, when the squad is stuttering, we need someone on the pitch who can win us a free-kick to buy us time or position. We need a player who others can see working hard and emulate him. He may slow down the game, but right now, with the defence the way it is, I don't want the game going so fast. When Tiote and Cabaye have their old partnership back in step, Colo is back and imperious, when we no longer need the reliable Volvo, then sure we should give the Alfa Romeo a spin. Just not now, especially given the next 2 league games are Man U and sunderland. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Christmas Tree 3997 Posted October 3, 2012 Author Share Posted October 3, 2012 Different views of the game and we'll have to agree ( or not ) to disagree. Having the left wing working as I think it should, will allow all the other bits to come right. The other option is to drop Cisse and play Feguson on the left of Ba and HBA on the right. That way you can keep Jonas graft on the pitch. What I'm 100% convinced of is that we won't come good unless Jonas or Cisse gets dropped ( for the shape of the team). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tooj 17 Posted October 3, 2012 Share Posted October 3, 2012 It came good last season though with both on the pitch in a 4-3-3. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Fish 8989 Posted October 3, 2012 Share Posted October 3, 2012 Different views of the game and we'll have to agree ( or not ) to disagree. Having the left wing working as I think it should, will allow all the other bits to come right. The other option is to drop Cisse and play Feguson on the left of Ba and HBA on the right. That way you can keep Jonas graft on the pitch. What I'm 100% convinced of is that we won't come good unless Jonas or Cisse gets dropped ( for the shape of the team). I'm 100% convinced we need Jonas until we come good. Two different philosophies I guess. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andrew 4218 Posted October 3, 2012 Share Posted October 3, 2012 I'm 100% convinced we need Jonas until we come good. Two different philosophies I guess. Me too, can't underestimate the value of hard work in the side when our more stylish players aren't available/playing well Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sniffer 0 Posted October 3, 2012 Share Posted October 3, 2012 I agree he puts in a shift on the left and he is worth his position, not in the CF position, though. IMO, moving Jonas inside creates a liability when he loses the ball so frequently. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Your Name Here Posted October 3, 2012 Share Posted October 3, 2012 Why can't we put Jonas on the right? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Christmas Tree 3997 Posted October 3, 2012 Author Share Posted October 3, 2012 It came good last season though with both on the pitch in a 4-3-3. With Ba wide left, not scoring, which he won't play now. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Christmas Tree 3997 Posted October 3, 2012 Author Share Posted October 3, 2012 Why can't we put Jonas on the right? Ants been asking that for three years. (Not that I personally think his end product would be any better there, you will be surprised to hear) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Your Name Here Posted October 3, 2012 Share Posted October 3, 2012 Jonas is an enigma. He started out under KK playing like an unorthodox winger but has morphed into a left sided workhorse. SF offers more to the team, in theory at least. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Christmas Tree 3997 Posted October 3, 2012 Author Share Posted October 3, 2012 His workhorse role has its place such as against Man U last year iirc but unfortunately we have become over dependent on it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Your Name Here Posted October 3, 2012 Share Posted October 3, 2012 We've certainly become predictable. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sniffer 0 Posted October 3, 2012 Share Posted October 3, 2012 Jonas is an enigma. He started out under KK playing like an unorthodox winger but has morphed into a left sided workhorse. SF offers more to the team, in theory at least. It sounds good calling him an enigma. He's not though is he? He's an incredibly hard worker who gets loads of free kicks and can go past players at times, but is lucky if one in five of his crosses amounts to anything. I might be generous giving him 1 in 5 as well. Any enigma is how he hasn't learnt to cross a better ball or test the keeper more often given how long he's been playing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
David Kelly 1117 Posted October 3, 2012 Share Posted October 3, 2012 When we've missed one or more key players in every game this season it makes it almost impossible to produce anywhere near our best form. Tiote and Cabaye have only started together in one game and that was after Cabaye had basically no pre season and Colo wasn't behind them. You can't blame our left wing for our poor performances when the core of our team really hasn't been there. I'm comfortable with the thought that when we get our key players back we will look a lot more of an attacking threat from both sides. That said I do think if we're going to stick to a 4-4-2 then we need to have at least one of our wide players able to put some quality balls into the box and it has to be said that Jonas has never managed that in his four seasons here. Ferguson has had limited opportunity to show he is the man to do this but he has in the last two games taken his chance. Now surely is the time to give him more playing time to see if he can really be a part of the first team. The next two league games are far too big a risk imo but tomorrow night surely is the time, especially as it sounds as if we will be putting out a stronger team for him to play alongside. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Your Name Here Posted October 3, 2012 Share Posted October 3, 2012 It sounds good calling him an enigma. He's not though is he? He's an incredibly hard worker who gets loads of free kicks and can go past players at times, but is lucky if one in five of his crosses amounts to anything. I might be generous giving him 1 in 5 as well. Any enigma is how he hasn't learnt to cross a better ball or test the keeper more often given how long he's been playing. It is hard to understand how he's held down the left midfield slot for five years when his end product is so lacking. Running down blind alleys doesn't offer much in terms of incisive team play. Why he's never been given a serious run out down the right is a mystery. Few players are very good at crossing with their wrong foot. Then there's the contrast between his excellent link up play with Enrique and the respective players inability to replicate it with anybody else. Not to mention Maradona using him as an attacking right-back in the world cup. All in all it's hard to work out what his natural position should be. When he first arrived he played with ambition and style. Now he just runs up and down the line and falls over a lot. I think he has more to offer than being a left sided water carrier with balance issues, a player who has sacrificed his own development for the sake of the team. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OTF 6148 Posted October 3, 2012 Share Posted October 3, 2012 It is hard to understand how he's held down the left midfield slot for five years when his end product is so lacking. Running down blind alleys doesn't offer much in terms of incisive team play. Why he's never been given a serious run out down the right is a mystery. Few players are very good at crossing with their wrong foot. Then there's the contrast between his excellent link up play with Enrique and the respective players inability to replicate it with anybody else. Not to mention Maradona using him as an attacking right-back in the world cup. All in all it's hard to work out what his natural position should be. When he first arrived he played with ambition and style. Now he just runs up and down the line and falls over a lot. I think he has more to offer than being a left sided water carrier with balance issues, a player who has sacrificed his own development for the sake of the team. Wins the most free-kicks in the entire league, plus a bunch of corners as well - we're not seeing much benefit from this because our free-kick takers have beeen ordinary this season since Ryan Taylor was injured, plus we seem to always have the same plan to loft it in to Wiliamson who doesn't create chances even if he is first to the ball. Jonas would get balls into the box quicker if he was played down the right, but I don't think his crossing would suddenly improve markedly. Ferguson should be used off the bench for impact. Starting him in the league would not be good for him or us IMO. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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