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Europe --- In or Out


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Are people so cynical now that there is no belief in altruism? Or maybe the belief we are more productive as a whole than separate nations? Or maybe even the best way to avoid war is to be economically tied?

 

I don't know, I was a massive europhile but am hugely disillusioned now. I was naive, I accept. And maybe I'm uber naive, but I think the intentions of the EU were benevolent, at least originally. I'm not willing to let go of the idea just yet, and, as you allude to, think the reality of being left to our own Daily mail devices is probably much worse.

:lol: You sweet dear.

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Reading articles like this I can sort of see the "benefits" of being out.

 

https://t.co/3DmWJ0fI7a

 

Be interesting to see some equally factual arguments for stopping in other than keeping the status quo or scare stories. (Not aimed at anyone in here).

Not remotely surprising for such an impartial man such as yourself to see how you are informed. :lol:

 

Making comparisons with Switzerland and Norway is ridiculous. And in any case, Norway, the beneficiary of a huge oil bonanza with the population of approximately Whitley Bay, is now fucked that oil is less than 30 greens a barrel. Terrible exemplar on every level.

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Not remotely surprising for such an impartial man such as yourself to see how you are informed. :lol:

 

Making comparisons with Switzerland and Norway is ridiculous. And in any case, Norway, the beneficiary of a huge oil bonanza with the population of approximately Whitley Bay, is now fucked that oil is less than 30 greens a barrel. Terrible exemplar on every level.

I'm informed by lots of things unlike you who it appears starts and stops with the morning star and Enid blyton books.

 

I take from that article the opinion that leaving won't effect our trade with the EU, we will be back to having overlords who are sackable, it will save us money and keep us at arms length from a very unstable situation.

 

I am quite open to both sides of the argument as I thinks it's a fairly important decision. You it seems (as usual) are just here to make digs. If you have anything useful to sway me one way or the other, fire away.

 

Until then, consider yourself on the naughty step.

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I'm informed by lots of things unlike you who it appears starts and stops with the morning star and Enid blyton books.

 

I take from that article the opinion that leaving won't effect our trade with the EU, we will be back to having overlords who are sackable, it will save us money and keep us at arms length from a very unstable situation.

 

I am quite open to both sides of the argument as I thinks it's a fairly important decision. You it seems (as usual) are just here to make digs. If you have anything useful to sway me one way or the other, fire away.

 

Until then, consider yourself on the naughty step.

Morning star? Fuck me, recently I've been accused being of to the right of Hitler on this board, so ..... whatever.

 

My point was that it is a ridiculously impartial source of information, and it's interesting how you found it. Either as a subscriber or by cherry picked googling I suspect.

 

It's obvious what's happened to you imo, you've ditched Dave for Boris, you fickle idiot. :D

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Morning star? Fuck me, recently I've been accused being of to the right of Hitler on this board, so ..... whatever.

 

My point was that it is a ridiculously impartial source of information, and it's interesting how you found it. Either as a subscriber or by cherry picked googling I suspect.

 

It's obvious what's happened to you imo, you've ditched Dave for Boris, you fickle idiot. :D

It was retweeted by Andrew Neil. ;)

 

Still no sensible arguments from you. ;)

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BoJo making his play for the Tory leadership, I see, by playing the populist card and defying "Dave".

 

I can't see anything but us stopping in. The Brits are way too risk averse to make such a bold step into the unknown. Cameron will campaign negatively - bit effectively - just as he did in the last election and the Scottish referendum and people will be too scared to vote against the status quo. At least it'll mean the end for Farage and UKIP.

Edited by Dr Gloom
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It was retweeted by Andrew Neil. ;)

 

Still no sensible arguments from you. ;)

Well, apart from my post from last night you mean, where I cited the opinion of Matthew Paris, a conservative pm, who writes an editorial in one of the only papers I buy, the Saturday times (hardly the morning Star btw)?

 

To change the status quo, the onus of evidence us on you why it needs changing. The article you linked to basically said Europe is a mess and we're better off out of it, and we'd save money. The counter argument, which I stated prior to your post, was that like it or not, WE ARE PART OF EUROPE. If we leave the EU, Europe will be weaker which means the west will be weaker. This includes us. Can you think of any situation in history where isolationism has been a good thing?

 

As for saving money, nearly all the evidence is contrary to this, when you consider the wider costs outside membership fees. For instance, Nissan will be spending 10% extra for every car they export to Europe, where they do the vast amount of their business. What do you think they will do? What will the consequences be for your community, literally next door to the factory?

 

So go on, this is a discussion board. In YOUR OWN WORDS, rather than linking to a right wing journal, tell me why we should leave the EU?

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BoJo making his at for the Tory leadership, I see, by playing the populist card and defying "Dave".

 

I can't see anything but us stopping in. The Brits are way too risk averse to make such a bold step into the unknown. Cameron will campaign negatively - bit effectively - just as he did in the last election and the Scottish referendum and people will be too scared to vote against the status quo. At least it'll mean the end for Farage and UKIP.

Living in London gloomy, can you explain to me how Londoners, the most europhile people in the UK (no doubt because half are EU immigrants) will react to this?

 

Also fed up with the "negative campaigning" bolloaks. If we leave the EU, my belief is the consequences will be massively negative. Up to the our campaign to counter this and make the positive case, which so far they've failed to do.

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I'm in otherwise I'm out. If you get my drift.

 

I'm working in Brussels a lot at the moment as the Commission is implementing an 'Article' from a 'Directive' which was introduced in 2011 and then had an 'implementing decision' in 2013. To move it forward, all the member states have to sign up and we now have a 'joint action' which if successful, may lead to an amendment to the law in 2020. The bureaucracy may seem Byzantine but the process is inclusive and deliberate in its political intentions to be of benefit to the people.

 

From my view, the European political structures are complex but well intentioned and don't try and wrestle control away from member states. When we have received legal implications from European law, it's because other member states want it.

 

I also think the economic path forward is stronger with Europe but recognize that there are many points of view but I would recommend having a read around the subject of people are truly interested. This is a good start.

 

http://news.cbi.org.uk/campaigns/our-global-future/factsheets/factsheet-2-benefits-of-eu-membership-outweigh-costs/

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I'm in otherwise I'm out. If you get my drift.

 

I'm working in Brussels a lot at the moment as the Commission is implementing an 'Article' from a 'Directive' which was introduced in 2011 and then had an 'implementing decision' in 2013. To move it forward, all the member states have to sign up and we now have a 'joint action' which if successful, may lead to an amendment to the law in 2020. The bureaucracy may seem Byzantine but the process is inclusive and deliberate in its political intentions to be of benefit to the people.

 

From my view, the European political structures are complex but well intentioned and don't try and wrestle control away from member states. When we have received legal implications from European law, it's because other member states want it.

 

I also think the economic path forward is stronger with Europe but recognize that there are many points of view but I would recommend having a read around the subject of people are truly interested. This is a good start.

 

http://news.cbi.org.uk/campaigns/our-global-future/factsheets/factsheet-2-benefits-of-eu-membership-outweigh-costs/

Cheers. Lots of facts there, for CT to ignore and whinge that there no facts, so he can agree with his latest tory hero, Boris.

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Well, apart from my post from last night you mean, where I cited the opinion of Matthew Paris, a conservative pm, who writes an editorial in one of the only papers I buy, the Saturday times (hardly the morning Star btw)?

 

To change the status quo, the onus of evidence us on you why it needs changing. The article you linked to basically said Europe is a mess and we're better off out of it, and we'd save money. The counter argument, which I stated prior to your post, was that like it or not, WE ARE PART OF EUROPE. If we leave the EU, Europe will be weaker which means the west will be weaker. This includes us. Can you think of any situation in history where isolationism has been a good thing?

 

As for saving money, nearly all the evidence is contrary to this, when you consider the wider costs outside membership fees. For instance, Nissan will be spending 10% extra for every car they export to Europe, where they do the vast amount of their business. What do you think they will do? What will the consequences be for your community, literally next door to the factory?

 

So go on, this is a discussion board. In YOUR OWN WORDS, rather than linking to a right wing journal, tell me why we should leave the EU?

Why would I tell you we should leave? I've clearly stated I'm undecided and looking forward to hearing the arguments for and against.

 

The Nissan patter btw is the same patter they spouted in 2002 if we didn't join the euro.

 

As for the economy, the studies I've read so far indicate whilst it is plausible we could be worse off, the more likely scenario is we will be better off.

 

The isolationist point seems week as well. We are a main player in the UN and Europes biggest customer. I'm quite sure we would still have lots of influence.

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I'm in otherwise I'm out. If you get my drift.

 

I'm working in Brussels a lot at the moment as the Commission is implementing an 'Article' from a 'Directive' which was introduced in 2011 and then had an 'implementing decision' in 2013. To move it forward, all the member states have to sign up and we now have a 'joint action' which if successful, may lead to an amendment to the law in 2020. The bureaucracy may seem Byzantine but the process is inclusive and deliberate in its political intentions to be of benefit to the people.

 

From my view, the European political structures are complex but well intentioned and don't try and wrestle control away from member states. When we have received legal implications from European law, it's because other member states want it.

 

I also think the economic path forward is stronger with Europe but recognize that there are many points of view but I would recommend having a read around the subject of people are truly interested. This is a good start.

 

http://news.cbi.org.uk/campaigns/our-global-future/factsheets/factsheet-2-benefits-of-eu-membership-outweigh-costs/

Take the main point Chez

 

"Access to a $16.6 trillion a year Single Market of 500m people is the key benefit".

 

Does anyone remotely believe that this would change if we were out.

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Take the main point Chez

 

"Access to a $16.6 trillion a year Single Market of 500m people is the key benefit".

 

Does anyone remotely believe that this would change if we were out.

YES!

 

Seriously how thick are you? Do you really believe if we leave the EU the much larger part of Europe, nearly all of Europe in fact, will trade with us as if nothing as happened? Christ, I thought I was naive.

 

Mind, this is coming from the bloke last week that was unable to understand the difference between suppliers, providers, and payers with respect to the national health service.

 

Ahhh, if only you'd paid attention in school, rather than smoking cigs and reading porn, how great could you have become CT?

Edited by Renton
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YES!

 

Seriously how thick are you? Do you really believe if we leave the EU the much larger part of Europe, nearly all of Europe in fact, will trade with us as if nothing as happened? Christ, I thought I was naive.

 

Mind, this is coming from the bloke last week that was unable to understand the difference between suppliers, providers, and payers with respect to the national health service.

 

Ahhh, if only you'd paid attention in school, rather than smoking cigs and reading porn, how great could you have become CT?

 

For me this is the main point. The EU are certainly not going to give the UK a free pass in the event of withdrawal. We will be used as an example of what happens if you think that you're better off on your own to discourage others from doing the same.

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YES!

 

Seriously how thick are you? Do you really believe if we leave the EU the much larger part of Europe, nearly all of Europe in fact, will trade with us as if nothing as happened? Christ, I thought I was naive.

 

Mind, this is coming from the bloke last week that was unable to understand the difference between suppliers, providers, and payers with respect to the national health service.

 

Ahhh, if only you'd paid attention in school, rather than smoking cigs and reading porn, how great could you have become CT?

You are naive :lol:

 

We are Europes biggest customer. The idea that tit for tat tariffs are suddenly going to effect all our trade is ridiculous.

 

I see this is following your usual trend as well. Lots of snidely comments followed by you eventually running off crying.

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Aye, as expected.

 

Renton you have to understand how truly thick CT is.

 

He doesn't want to have to think about anything, he wants to be told what to do and when to do it. That's why he is a tory they order people about and CT likes that. He is exactly the kind of person who would have voted for Hitler in Germany in the 30's.

 

The Brexit people say "we will be better off vote to leave" so CT says "that's the prrof right there that's what I will do". He can't be having with being asked to think of the implications of anything, he wants the strong hand of government telling him what to do. It's also why he is a taxi driver, he just drives around all day doing what people tell him to do. He is a fuckwit stop trying to engage him in reasoned debate.

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