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Europe --- In or Out


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You really think that Brexit will somehow increase the influence of unions?

 

Interesting point about stopping the free movement of people, because of course that will work both ways and could have major negative consequences for many UK citizens working in Europe.

 

I do believe the EU has a lot to answer for regarding its expansionist policies in Eastern Europe. This might be it's downfall.

 

Union leaders would have much more knowledge than me and they seem as confused as everyone else, with none of the major unions seeming to have stated any opinion whatsoever so far. it seems logical to me that British citizens hold much more sway than overseas workers bussed in and living in gettos though, whatever protection the EU purports to provide from a distance.

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We would no longer be even part of the common market, we'd be setting the clock back 40 years. Of course we would be isolated. Try looking at it from the perspective of France, for instance. I think the implications are much bigger than you are suggesting.

That's why I'm asking what you envisage. Trade will continue. In what way will be isolated?

 

I'm just trying to put some meat on the bones of what is a very scare mongering statement.

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I think you should pause and read the thread again. I said when I started it in 2013 and again this week, that I think it will be very hard for people to come to a "considered" decision.

 

I have said numerous times I am undecided and am looking forward to understanding the pros and cons of in or out. Given this is the case, why on earth would I use my "own words" to put a case for something I might not believe in?

 

I would imagine over the next few months a few of us will chuck up interesting articles for both sides.

 

So far, and it's only been a few days, I haven't seen any strong factual arguments for staying. IE What the actual downside of leaving WILL be.

What are your thoughts on the article Chez posted?

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Union leaders would have much more knowledge than me and they seem as confused as everyone else, with none of the major unions seeming to have stated any opinion whatsoever so far. it seems logical to me that British citizens hold much more sway than overseas workers bussed in and living in gettos though, whatever protection the EU purports to provide from a distance.

I thought nearly all the large unions have sided with the stay campaign or are expected to? Also about 90% of labour mps?

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That's why I'm asking what you envisage. Trade will continue. In what way will be isolated?

 

I'm just trying to put some meat on the bones of what is a very scare mongering statement.

Leaving a union is by definition an act of isolation. Really not sure what you are getting at, it's not controversial.

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I thought nearly all the large unions have sided with the stay campaign or are expected to? Also about 90% of labour mps?

 

http://www.ibtimes.co.uk/eu-referendum-unison-will-launch-major-consultation-decide-stance-brexit-vote-1544023

 

The [out] movement’s popularity was expected to be further boosted tomorrow by the joining of two major trade union organisations.

 

Though organisers refused to name the bodies, one was widely expected to be the RMT, which has adopted an official anti-EU stance.

 

 

http://www.express.co.uk/news/politics/646026/Britain-anti-EU-groups-unite-Brexit-together-Leave-EU-Grassroots-Out-umbrella-group

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What are your thoughts on the article Chez posted?

It's from the CBI and they are clearly in favour of staying, which is fine. But basically it's saying this is where we are now. It's trying to imply that might all be at risk if we leave, without actually saying that.

 

Most of what I've read so far indicates that most of what the CBI point out as being good, will continue.

 

If it was demonstrated that there was a real risk that we would lose all of that, the in camp would win by a landslide.

 

However the picture that I'm building at the minute is of continued free trade with Europe, but more opportunities to trade with the booming countries of Brazil, China, India etc

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Leaving a union is by definition an act of isolation. Really not sure what you are getting at, it's not controversial.

I gave you several examples of how we will continue to play a very big part in the world, possibly even a bigger part with new worldwide trade agreements.

 

I was trying to get at what you feel the everyday life difference will be in your isolated Britain.

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I gave you several examples of how we will continue to play a very big part in the world, possibly even a bigger part with new worldwide trade agreements.

 

I was trying to get at what you feel the everyday life difference will be in your isolated Britain.

You haven't really given any examples and I feel you're not even reading your source material, or at least interpreting it differently to me. To answer your question though, I think the potential negatives of withdrawal are huge:

We almost certainly will be penalized by our European neighbours, so our economy will be damaged, permanently.

We will lose our freedom of movement. We will have less inward investment.

We will lose Scotland.

We will have less standing on the world stage, particularly in US eyes.

Russia and China will be gleeful.

And we could be the catalyst for the EU to catastrophically fail, which will be massively damaging to us all.

 

You can call it scaremongering if you like, but these are real risks. So far nobody has articulated to me any benefit worth these risks.

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Living in London gloomy, can you explain to me how Londoners, the most europhile people in the UK (no doubt because half are EU immigrants) will react to this?

 

Also fed up with the "negative campaigning" bolloaks. If we leave the EU, my belief is the consequences will be massively negative. Up to the our campaign to counter this and make the positive case, which so far they've failed to do.

Most people down here will vote to stay in, I suspect. It's only really an issue for people who object to more brown skinned people entering the country and leaching off the state - something that is less of a concern for Londoners, who recognise that the role immigrants play in underpinning the economy.

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the role immigrants play in underpinning the economy.

 

I was in conversation with a Greek chap the other day who posited that this was the main point of Europe - cheap labour for the the powers that be.

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Absolutely. People are far too quick to brand others racist in here.;)

 

If the stay campaign don't recognize the validity of the immigration problem for lower income people, they're going to lose. Not going to pretend I have a solution, but Brexit seems to me to be a nuclear option.

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Got in Himmel! Braun Volk are far too quick to brand others racist in here.;)

 

If ze stay campaign don't recognize ze validity of ze immigration problem for lower income Aryan volk, zey're going to lose. Not going to pretend I have a solution, but Brexit seems to me to be a V1 rocket option.

OK, Adolf, enough, already.

 

;)

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However the picture that I'm building at the minute is of continued free trade with Europe, but more opportunities to trade with the booming countries of Brazil, China, India etc

Here's an article that you don't even have to read last the title to understand:

 

http://www.forbes.com/sites/kenrapoza/2016/01/14/brazils-economy-hasnt-been-this-bad-since-1930/#1d9e28907dba

 

It's called "Brazil's economy hasn't been this bad since 1930".

 

China's current economic problems are all over the news and are causing widespread turmoil in the West too.

 

One out of three ain't bad.

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