Politics

[ewerk 27300]

Hey guys, any of you want to write a major tax policy on the back of a fag packet?

[ewerk 27300]

Was PFI really a mistake, or is it yet another case of repeat a lie enough it becomes the truth. PFI buildings have utterly transformed the trust I work for. Perhaps people would rather they were still treated in ramshackle cold, damp Victorian buildings but I know I wouldn't.

 

Let's put it into perspective, PFI repayments account for less than 2% of the NHS budget. How does that type of repayment compare with most people's mortgage? It's true that it is a problem for some trusts but that was individual bad management. It's an utter nonsense to blame PFI debt for the demise of the NHS though. People have shirt memories on what the NHS of the 80s was like.

 

Whether it was PFI or just the really bad deals some trusts entered into, the NHS could've saved a fuckload of money if the government had borrowed it directly rather through the methods that were used. 

[Renton 18561]

The NHS will always be a basket case. It will never have enough money to cope with ageing population, drug costs, equipment etc. An extra billion here or there makes little difference.

 

There are probably 3 options.

 

1. Some government sets up and raises a separate tax that is just for the NHS. People always say they are prepared to pay more taxes but historically it's never an election winner.

 

2. Privatisation is ramped up.

 

3. It continues to trundle along chasing its tale.

 

Be interesting if one of you money brains would take a stab at what separate tax rate would be required to fund it. Extra penny, tuppence?

Well, we pay less for the NHS than most OECD countries and a LOT less than the US. The NHS is underfunded, full stop, much more so today than under New Labour. I think the idea of a hypothecated tax is reasonable actually. I don't understand how privatisation will ever help if you want to keep the system universal. Bottom line is we need to pay more. But the main problem at the moment is the lack of social care which the Tories have decimated.

[Renton 18561]

Whether it was PFI or just the really bad deals some trusts entered into, the NHS could've saved a fuckload of money if the government had borrowed it directly rather through the methods that were used.

I'll be honest and say I don't know what alternative funding streams were viable at the time. PFI is definitely being used as a scape goat now though by the likes of CT. It's not a huge issue for well run trusts.

[Christmas Tree 4005]

Hey guys, any of you want to write a major tax policy on the back of a fag packet?

Not that hard is it?

 

An extra penny = 3 billion ?

 

Currently it gets something like 116 billion a year.

 

Then we want to fund schools properly, welfare, build social housing etc etc.

 

It's just the political game to keep promising it can all be solved with a few kinder left policies.

 

The truth is it's about making the most of the resources available and the Tories are always more competent at that.

[Dr Gloom 20321]

Not that hard is it?

 

An extra penny = 3 billion ?

 

Currently it gets something like 116 billion a year.

 

Then we want to fund schools properly, welfare, build social housing etc etc.

 

It's just the political game to keep promising it can all be solved with a few kinder left policies.

 

The truth is it's about making the most of the resources available and the Tories are always more competent at that.

 

[Rayvin 4992]

Thing is you could ask many Tory voters and they would support the NHS and more social housing. Corbyn sounded fresh when he first hit the scene but now he just comes across like a stuck robot. He has no appeal amongst the electorate he would need to win over.

 

The masses were never going to vote for him before the split, even less so now regardless of what sticking plaster is put on. Deselections will only split the local vote with dethroned MP's standing against momentums chosen.

 

It really is over now. Boundary changes and a resurgent UKIP could lead to Tory majority's unseen before. No coming back from that.

 

I'm genuinely not sure the Tories are going to have it all their own way. They are definitely going to have to start taking the concerns of the less well off into consideration, and that will hurt them. And I would add that this is largely because they don't want Corbyn to get anywhere, at all costs. Because if he did, the whole fucking gravy train would come crashing down.

 

Granted we're unlikely to ever see his election, as people blindly follow establishment media platforms (Daily Heil and the Sun foremost among them), but he's there as a fucking big threat to those in power of what might replace them if they don't start taking the concerns of ordinary people seriously. There is a line, somewhere, where the lives of enough people will become so fraught with economic woe that they will choose Corbyn for better or worse.

 

The 'death of the middle class' is already being quietly reported on. We have middle class, university graduates struggling to find jobs, working on minimum wage of zero hours contracts - half of them now being raised in rented accomodation. How long exactly does anyone think that this number can continue to grow without some actual fucking consequences?

 

https://www.theguardian.com/business/2016/jul/19/middle-income-families-poverty-ifs-report

 

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2016/07/13/half-of-middle-class-children-now-being-raised-in-rented-accomod/

 

If the IFS is finding that Middle income families are struggling, then they are. They just fucking are. The system is failing - it's not just the Tories although they're balls deep in it - it's the whole fucking thing. It's Neo-liberalism (see also the EU and the US). Something has to change or Corbyn, or whoever follows after him, will eventually win. It's inevitable unless SOMETHING changes by virtue of the fact that the disillusioned and left behind are increasing in number. New Labour, for all their successes in the past, were Neo-Liberalism personified - which I can only think is the reason they stood by and supported austerity. Brexit was the first warning shot IMO, although that was largely from the working class - but given that the working class and the left behind middle class are going to be occupying the same economic space soon, that's going to be a large number of people who the system just is not working for, many of whom will be educated enough to do something about it and cross the line between the two groups.

 

So no, the Tories are not going to come out of this any better than Labour are, but their reckoning is further down the line. They simply do not have the power (or the will, I would argue) to improve all of these peoples lives in a post-Brexit UK. So they will be punished, eventually.

Edited September 21, 2016 by Rayvin

[Christmas Tree 4005]

Well, we pay less for the NHS than most OECD countries and a LOT less than the US. The NHS is underfunded, full stop, much more so today than under New Labour. I think the idea of a hypothecated tax is reasonable actually. I don't understand how privatisation will ever help if you want to keep the system universal. Bottom line is we need to pay more. But the main problem at the moment is the lack of social care which the Tories have decimated.

Social cares been fucked since I was a teenager. Used to be an an council run old people's home on every estate. Probably looking at another 116 billion to sort that out.

[Meenzer 14249]

I don't understand how anyone can look at UKIP's vote share and impact over the last few years and assume that struggling people are turning, and will turn, automatically to Labour.

[Rayvin 4992]

I don't understand how anyone can look at UKIP's vote share and impact over the last few years and assume that struggling people are turning, and will turn, automatically to Labour.

 

What have UKIP got to offer these people beyond racism and leaving the EU? They're going to have to start coming up with some very 'Labour' like policies, quite quickly. I suspect they'll end up sounding quite a bit like Corbyn if they actually want to give the people voting for them any semblance of meaningful change. I suspect they'll fall short on this though, as they're a party full of quite dim people.

 

Unless they go full Nazi of course, I suppose that's the other way it could develop.

 

EDIT - although I basically agree that people won't turn to Labour, largely because I don't expect Labour to survive.

Edited September 21, 2016 by Rayvin

[Christmas Tree 4005]

I'm genuinely not sure the Tories are going to have it all their own way. They are definitely going to have to start taking the concerns of the less well off into consideration, and that will hurt them. And I would add that this is largely because they don't want Corbyn to get anywhere, at all costs. Because if he did, the whole fucking gravy train would come crashing down.

 

Granted we're unlikely to ever see his election, as people blindly follow establishment media platforms (Daily Heil and the Sun foremost among them), but he's there as a fucking big threat to those in power of what might replace them if they don't start taking the concerns of ordinary people seriously. There is a line, somewhere, where the lives of enough people will become so fraught with economic woe that they will choose Corbyn for better or worse.

 

The 'death of the middle class' is already being quietly reported on. We have middle class, university graduates struggling to find jobs, working on minimum wage of zero hours contracts - half of them now being raised in rented accomodation. How long exactly does anyone think that this number can continue to grow without some actual fucking consequences?

 

https://www.theguardian.com/business/2016/jul/19/middle-income-families-poverty-ifs-report

 

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2016/07/13/half-of-middle-class-children-now-being-raised-in-rented-accomod/

 

If the IFS is finding that Middle income families are struggling, then they are. They just fucking are. The system is failing - it's not just the Tories although they're balls deep in it - it's the whole fucking thing. It's Neo-liberalism (see also the EU and the US). Something has to change or Corbyn, or whoever follows after him, will eventually win. It's inevitable unless SOMETHING changes by virtue of the fact that the disillusioned and left behind are increasing in number. New Labour, for all their successes in the past, were Neo-Liberalism personified - which I can only think is the reason they stood by and supported austerity. Brexit was the first warning shot IMO, although that was largely from the working class - but given that the working class and the left behind middle class are going to be occupying the same economic space soon, that's going to be a large number of people who the system just is not working for, many of whom will be educated enough to do something about it and cross the line between the two groups.

 

So no, the Tories are not going to come out of this any better than Labour are, but their reckoning is further down the line. They simply do not have the power (or the will, I would argue) to improve all of these peoples lives in a post-Brexit UK. So they will be punished, eventually.

That must all make you feel good about Corbyn but let's not forget after 5 years of austerity the people have just last year elected a Tory majority government.

 

The people know the score.

[Dr Gloom 20321]

the people are morons

[Alex 31489]

He's just after bites, man.

[Christmas Tree 4005]

What have UKIP got to offer these people beyond racism and leaving the EU? They're going to have to start coming up with some very 'Labour' like policies, quite quickly. I suspect they'll end up sounding quite a bit like Corbyn if they actually want to give the people voting for them any semblance of meaningful change. I suspect they'll fall short on this though, as they're a party full of quite dim people.

 

Unless they go full Nazi of course, I suppose that's the other way it could develop.

 

EDIT - although I basically agree that people won't turn to Labour, largely because I don't expect Labour to survive.

UKIP will just go more and more mainstream. They will absorb from all parties. They are about to kick off their social media version of momentum using the millions on their vote leave database. They will clean up in the labour heartlands in 2020.

[Renton 18561]

Not sure UKip will even survive long term. They lack political infrastructure (a kind way of saying they are as thick as pig shit) and now they have achieved their raison d'etre they serve no purpose as far as I can see.

[PaddockLad 15144]

That must all make you feel good about Corbyn but let's not forget after 5 years of austerity the people have just last year elected a Tory majority government.

 

The people know the score.

Err....didn't the "people" vote narrowly for a referendum on the EU?..,then places like Sundrrland voted to leave because absolutely everything is fucking shit after nearly a decade of the aforementioned austerity?...or have I got that wrong?..

[Kevin Carr's Gloves 3370]

Was PFI really a mistake, or is it yet another case of repeat a lie enough it becomes the truth. PFI buildings have utterly transformed the trust I work for. Perhaps people would rather they were still treated in ramshackle cold, damp Victorian buildings but I know I wouldn't.

 

Let's put it into perspective, PFI repayments account for less than 2% of the NHS budget. How does that type of repayment compare with most people's mortgage? It's true that it is a problem for some trusts but that was individual bad management. It's an utter nonsense to blame PFI debt for the demise of the NHS though. People have shirt memories on what the NHS of the 80s was like.

 

PFI schools in Scotland are costing councils billions and are literally falling apart.

[Rayvin 4992]

Err....didn't the "people" vote narrowly for a referendum on the EU?..,then places like Sundrrland voted to leave because absolutely everything is fucking shit after nearly a decade of the aforementioned austerity?...or have I got that wrong?..

Sounds right to me.

[PaddockLad 15144]

PFI schools in Scotland are costing councils billions and are literally falling apart.

It's not the fault of pfi that nobody from the builders, the client or the local government ckerk of works department checked that wall ties were fitted properly. They're all equally to blame. Not the manner in which the building is financed.

[Alex 31489]

Despite Labour doing absolutely shite in the polls UKIP are doing slightly worse than they did at the last general election. So the notion they're going to do fasntastically well at the next election is baseless

[Alex 31489]

It's not the fault of pfi that nobody from the builders, the client or the local government ckerk of works department checked that wall ties were fitted properly. They're all equally to blame. Not the manner in which the building is financed.

That's spot on like.

[Renton 18561]

PFI schools in Scotland are costing councils billions and are literally falling apart.

Have you any figures? I think the fact some were jerry built is probably a different issue.

[Kevin Carr's Gloves 3370]

Cost to actually build and open facilities approx £5-6 Billion, cost of PFI contracts £30 billion.

 

http://www.heraldscotland.com/news/14432710.__30_billion__The_cost_of_Labour_s_toxic_PFI_legacy_to_Scotland/ 

[Dr Gloom 20321]

Not sure UKip will even survive long term. They lack political infrastructure (a kind way of saying they are as thick as pig shit) and now they have achieved their raison d'etre they serve no purpose as far as I can see.

 

yes, they've achieved their goal. they'll soon cease to be, or be replaced by something even more unpalatable. the kick out the towel heads party, or something

[wykikitoon 17574]

It's not the fault of pfi that nobody from the builders, the client or the local government ckerk of works department checked that wall ties were fitted properly. They're all equally to blame. Not the manner in which the building is financed.

 

Some of the schools I have worked on the contractors do anything to make money.  Went on a site a couple of years back and noticed a load of rebar missing from a foundation and mentioned it.  Tried blaming it on us, showed him the drawings dumb look on the face.  Most of the founds had been cast too.