Politics

[Rayvin 6594]

I see we're running Rivers of Blood comparisons today. One thing that I'm not following mind, Starmer keeps claiming that the Tories were running an open border experiment - obviously they weren't in reality, but what is he basically pointing to? What specifically did the Tories do which enabled immigration to spiral?

[Alex 38083]

3 minutes ago, Rayvin said:

I see we're running Rivers of Blood comparisons today. One thing that I'm not following mind, Starmer keeps claiming that the Tories were running an open border experiment - obviously they weren't in reality, but what is he basically pointing to? What specifically did the Tories do which enabled immigration to spiral?

I think the student visa thing was to allow them to paper over the cracks of the loss of FoM. But it was massively open to abuse with academic institutions being set up that were only pretending to teach students and were just a route into allowing you to live here 

[Rayvin 6594]

1 minute ago, Alex said:

I think the student visa thing was to allow them to paper over the cracks of the loss of FoM. But it was massively open to abuse with academic institutions being set up that were only pretending to teach students and were just a route into allowing you to live here 

 

Ah that makes sense now. But it's interesting this point about papering over the cracks - what does Labour expect is going to be different now, that they'll enact changes quick enough that they can fill the cracks before they need papering over?

[PaddockLad 19915]

10 minutes ago, Rayvin said:

I see we're running Rivers of Blood comparisons today. One thing that I'm not following mind, Starmer keeps claiming that the Tories were running an open border experiment - obviously they weren't in reality, but what is he basically pointing to? What specifically did the Tories do which enabled immigration to spiral?

Well they relaxed visa restrictions in 2021, which strangely the point where the transition period for Brexit finished and we were completely out. Not sure if these two things are connected? 😆
 

edit: I say this specifically with the care workers thing in mind 

Edited yesterday at 09:59 by PaddockLad

[Alex 38083]

By ‘them’, I mean the previous government. Also, legitimate academic institutions were incentivised to attract increasing numbers of foreign students. As fees for UK students were frozen for ages (effectively reducing in real terms) whereas they could charge foreign students what they liked. 
There’s other stuff too. You could have prevented a lot of channel crossings in small boats by agreeing to have had a processing centre on the French side (I think the French offered this option). 

Edited yesterday at 10:02 by Alex

[Alex 38083]

2 minutes ago, Rayvin said:

 

Ah that makes sense now. But it's interesting this point about papering over the cracks - what does Labour expect is going to be different now, that they'll enact changes quick enough that they can fill the cracks before they need papering over?

I haven’t got a clue. I was speculating as to what the PM was getting at. Ironically I see closer EU ties by stealth (which I think is what Starmer is going to do) is another ‘cake and eat it’ scenario which would be more popular if it was honest and out in the open. Trying to appeal to (or not annoy) people who still think Brexit is a good thing is bat shit crazy. It’ll be another fudge that pleases almost no one 

[PaddockLad 19915]

6 minutes ago, Alex said:

By then, I mean the previous government. Also, legitimate academic institutions were incentivised to attract increasing numbers of foreign students. As fees for UK students were frozen for ages (effectively reducing in real terms) whereas they could charge foreign students what they liked. 
There’s other stuff too. You could have prevented a lot of channel crossings in small boats by agreeing to have had a processing centre on the French side (I think the French offered this option). 

Yeah Tories closed all overseas processing centres and safe routes. They created the boat issue so they looked like they were doing something about an issue which didn’t really exist at the ballot box but after Farage’s constant exploitation of Tory policy we are now here with a Labour PM making speeches that got politicians sacked for making in the late 70s (Powell had to go to one of the Ulster Unionist parties after Heath sacked him so he could remain an MP) 

Edited yesterday at 10:04 by PaddockLad

[wykikitoon 24034]

I've not kept up on the politics for weeks as tbh it's too fucking depressing and I've got too much stuff on.

Anyway a very close pal messages me yesterday to tell me Starmer was going to be announcing we are 'taking back control'  followed by 'He might as well come clean and tell people its Farage running the country'  He's convinced Farage is in charge. 

[Craig 7708]

Well the electorate are in charge, and they made a clear point on 1st May of their feelings. 

The concern I have is Starmer is acting with appeasement in mind. 

[Rayvin 6594]

The media and dirty money is in charge more like. The electorate for the most part doesn't understand any single issue well enough to place an informed vote against it because they only get their information from one side.

[Craig 7708]

15 minutes ago, Rayvin said:

The media and dirty money is in charge more like. The electorate for the most part doesn't understand any single issue well enough to place an informed vote against it because they only get their information from one side.

I think the electorate very much do understand the issues that are important to them. What a good proportion don't understand is how those issues tie into overall rhetoric.

Take Brexit for instance - those who voted for it principally fell into 3 categories:

-  Those for who immigration was an issue.

- Those who were fed up of legislation being made outside of British Parliament.

- Those who believed it would improve British trade.

 

It didn't deliver for any of them! The question I have is what is Starmer ultimately trying to achieve? If it's zero net-migration at all costs, then he's implementing Reform policy, which I just cannot get my head around. 

It was noticeable that when they asked Farage for a soundbite on it, he didn't say he was pleased to hear it; he said he was flattered to hear it.

[Kid Dynamite 8036]

So our local councillor stood as an independent candidate and got in. Fast forward 10 days and he's announced he's joined Reform. I've told him what I think of him on Facebook (politely) and he's deleted the message and blocked me

 

What a cunt 

[Rayvin 6594]

17 hours ago, Craig said:

I think the electorate very much do understand the issues that are important to them. What a good proportion don't understand is how those issues tie into overall rhetoric.

 

I don't agree. Immigration is a great example. Most people who want immigration to go down understand only one side of that issue. They do not understand for instance that social care will be decimated, that pensions will be threatened, that certain sectors will struggle with impacts felt throughout the economy.

 

Most of them don't even understand that immigration is a net positive on the economy. People sort of drift through life thinking that governments make these choices out of some Marxist agenda, whereas in reality the choice to permit immigration is a response to an economic need.

 

I am yet to see an anti immigration voter properly contend with both sides of that issue, and thats what I mean when I say people don't understand these issues as fully as they'd need to in order to make an informed decision.

 

I debate with the fuckers day in, day out. I can see it.

[Rayvin 6594]

Today in PMQs:

 

Farage

We at Reform, a party that is alive and kicking, very much enjoyed your speech on Monday, you seem to be learning a very great deal from us. Could I encourage you please to go further, as a matter of national security?

Over the weekend, an illegal immigrant from Iran, who we believe came by boat, was arrested in the north of England on serious charges of terrorism. Since the speech on Monday, 1,000 young, undocumented young males have crossed the English Channel.

Does the prime minister agree, now is the time to declare the situation in the English Channel as a national security emergency?

Starmer

The situation is serious, the last government lost control of the borders.

The [border security, asylum and immigration) bill is the first bill to give terrorism-like powers to law enforcement, precisely so that we can get in before the crimes are committed, before people get to this country.

This is the most far-reaching provision ever for law enforcement to defend and secure our borders, and that’s why it is extraordinary that he, of all people, voted against it.

 

This is going to be the dialogue for the next 4 years I suspect.

[Toonpack 12335]

19 minutes ago, Rayvin said:

Today in PMQs:

 

Farage

We at Reform, a party that is alive and kicking, very much enjoyed your speech on Monday, you seem to be learning a very great deal from us. Could I encourage you please to go further, as a matter of national security?

Over the weekend, an illegal immigrant from Iran, who we believe came by boat, was arrested in the north of England on serious charges of terrorism. Since the speech on Monday, 1,000 young, undocumented young males have crossed the English Channel.

Does the prime minister agree, now is the time to declare the situation in the English Channel as a national security emergency?

Starmer

The situation is serious, the last government lost control of the borders.

The [border security, asylum and immigration) bill is the first bill to give terrorism-like powers to law enforcement, precisely so that we can get in before the crimes are committed, before people get to this country.

This is the most far-reaching provision ever for law enforcement to defend and secure our borders, and that’s why it is extraordinary that he, of all people, voted against it.

 

This is going to be the dialogue for the next 4 years I suspect.

 

It's an utter shambles, here I was hoping for some boring and serious politics/governance, yet here we are.

[Renton 24686]

42 minutes ago, Toonpack said:

 

It's an utter shambles, here I was hoping for some boring and serious politics/governance, yet here we are.

 

Feel the same. Just going to completely disengage from it at this point. What a fucking disgrace Starmer is, and I've spent the last 3 years defending him. Worst thing is its clear he's doing all this purely for political reasons but it's so transparently going to backfire even in those cynical terms.

[PaddockLad 19915]

Farage is now effectively Home Secretary

[Tom 14386]

Starmer is playing up to people who will hate him no matter what he does whilst losing his actual support base