Politics

[Tooj 17]

My utterly insanse 79 year old grandmother is going to spend 30 minutes outside of as many North East hospitals as possible on Thursday with a "Vote Labour, save the NHS" sign hanging from her neck. [emoji38]

[Gemmill 34698]

Good for Granny Tooj!

[ChezGiven 0]

http://www.theguardian.com/business/2015/may/03/senior-tory-financial-crash-was-purely-a-banking-crisis-not-labour-overspend

 

Absolute disgrace that this lie has been sucked up by millions of idiots.

[Rayvin 4964]

http://www.theguardian.com/business/2015/may/03/senior-tory-financial-crash-was-purely-a-banking-crisis-not-labour-overspend

 

Absolute disgrace that this lie has been sucked up by millions of idiots.

 

I say this all the time but honestly, even Labour seem to have given up defending themselves on this. It's like the debate has moved on now and everyone has just 'agreed' that this ridiculous retelling of history that we have from the Tories is the way it was.

 

As you say, millions of idiots.

[PaddockLad 14646]

My otherwise fairly reasonable in laws wouldn't have it that Labour had fairly little to do with the crash the other night...they read the fuckin daily mail though

[Park Life 70]

http://www.theguardian.com/business/2015/may/03/senior-tory-financial-crash-was-purely-a-banking-crisis-not-labour-overspend

 

Absolute disgrace that this lie has been sucked up by millions of idiots.

It was a toxic mix of deregulation (Labour), overspending (Labour), not paying down debt duing the good times (Labour) and a corrupt and self-absorbed political class (elites), along with fraudulent Banksters. Nothing has been done by anybody of any political colour to address this since. Nothing meaningful anyway with proper teeth or consequences. During this election it has been the evil nobody speaks of. Along with TTIP which will be another rape of countries by international finance and corporations (not a word about it anywhere). The whole political class need drowning in puddles so it takes ages and gives maximum pain.

[Kevin Carr's Gloves 3218]

It was a toxic mix of deregulation (Labour), overspending (Labour), not paying down debt duing the good times (Labour) and a corrupt and self-absorbed political class (elites), along with fraudulent Banksters. Nothing has been done by anybody of any political colour to address this since. Nothing meaningful anyway with proper teeth or consequences. During this election it has been the evil nobody speaks of. Along with TTIP which will be another rape of countries by international finance and corporations (not a word about it anywhere). The whole political class need drowning in puddles so it takes ages and gives maximum pain.

Yep.

[Gemmill 34698]

TTIP is pretty terrifying. You know when you watch all these dystopian movies and they always start with text on the screen about in 2036 when the Corporations took over, blah blah. TTIP seems to me to be basically how you get yourself in that position. And as you say Parky, there's no opposition to it whoever gets into power. There's only the Greens saying to knock it on the head.

[ChezGiven 0]

It was a toxic mix of deregulation (Labour), overspending (Labour), not paying down debt duing the good times (Labour) and a corrupt and self-absorbed political class (elites), along with fraudulent Banksters. Nothing has been done by anybody of any political colour to address this since. Nothing meaningful anyway with proper teeth or consequences. During this election it has been the evil nobody speaks of. Along with TTIP which will be another rape of countries by international finance and corporations (not a word about it anywhere). The whole political class need drowning in puddles so it takes ages and gives maximum pain.

 

Labour deregulated the US, French, German, Italian, Spanish, Greek, Azerbaijani financial markets too? The crash happened everywhere, how can UK regulation be to blame?

 

I dont need any steers on this but thanks anyway Let me just correct a few things. We didnt overspend nor did we fail to to pay down debt because the models in complete alignment across the board did not forecast a massive downturn in the economy. Only in the face of a forecast cyclical downturn would you potentially use Kenynesian counter-fiscal policy, a policy no one has used for decades.

 

The policy they were using to account for and counter-act negative aspects of the levels of government spending was monetary policy to set inflation targets. If the government was 'over' spending, there would have been inflationary pressure and the response would have been to raise interest rates. The definition of 'over' in this context is laden with judgement based on some notion of what is right and wrong, which in the context of British economic policy in the 2000s was inflation-based. So no inflation, no over-spending. As someone on the Guardian website says, this notion of 'over-spending' is meaningless outside the context of economic policy. If you still want to use it without this context then fine but the response is simple: the over-spending counter-balances 18 years of Tory under-spending. Its meaningless but if us leftists can have our cake and eat it on that one.

 

Finally we were running a deficit of less than 3% (which we needed to do under Maastricht). So, if Labour had not invested in Sure Start or boosted welfare benefits for working low income families and not invested in the NHS, then we might have been nearer to 0% during the pre-crisis period. Then what happens when we bail the banks out and the economy crashes? We go 500bn into debt and start running a massive deficit. The impact of public spending in the period 2002-2007 has no relevance to the impact of the crisis and the depth of the recession.

 

For proof of this point, have a look at Spain's fiscal surplus across this period. If the current economic conditions in the UK can be attributed to Labour spending pre-2008, how come Spain is in more pain than us?

 

Our pain was because UK GDP output was made up predominantly by financial services. The real blame, the real cause of today's economic problems are the people who allowed our economy to be dominated by the financial services industry. I wonder when that happened?

[NJS 3986]

I was out for a pub lunch today and overheard some old cunts saying they couldn't believe "that bloke" whose name they couldn't even pronounce was on the verge of being pm. Any electoral reform should include an age/senility test.

[Park Life 70]

 

Labour deregulated the US, French, German, Italian, Spanish, Greek, Azerbaijani financial markets too? The crash happened everywhere, how can UK regulation be to blame?

 

I dont need any steers on this but thanks anyway Let me just correct a few things. We didnt overspend nor did we fail to to pay down debt because the models in complete alignment across the board did not forecast a massive downturn in the economy. Only in the face of a forecast cyclical downturn would you potentially use Kenynesian counter-fiscal policy, a policy no one has used for decades.

 

The policy they were using to account for and counter-act negative aspects of the levels of government spending was monetary policy to set inflation targets. If the government was 'over' spending, there would have been inflationary pressure and the response would have been to raise interest rates. The definition of 'over' in this context is laden with judgement based on some notion of what is right and wrong, which in the context of British economic policy in the 2000s was inflation-based. So no inflation, no over-spending. As someone on the Guardian website says, this notion of 'over-spending' is meaningless outside the context of economic policy. If you still want to use it without this context then fine but the response is simple: the over-spending counter-balances 18 years of Tory under-spending. Its meaningless but if us leftists can have our cake and eat it on that one.

 

Finally we were running a deficit of less than 3% (which we needed to do under Maastricht). So, if Labour had not invested in Sure Start or boosted welfare benefits for working low income families and not invested in the NHS, then we might have been nearer to 0% during the pre-crisis period. Then what happens when we bail the banks out and the economy crashes? We go 500bn into debt and start running a massive deficit. The impact of public spending in the period 2002-2007 has no relevance to the impact of the crisis and the depth of the recession.

 

For proof of this point, have a look at Spain's fiscal surplus across this period. If the current economic conditions in the UK can be attributed to Labour spending pre-2008, how come Spain is in more pain than us?

 

Our pain was because UK GDP output was made up predominantly by financial services. The real blame, the real cause of today's economic problems are the people who allowed our economy to be dominated by the financial services industry. I wonder when that happened?

Why didn't you say all that in your first post cunthead?

 

The core of the crisis was UK banks (deregulated) were upto their gills in derivitives and toxic packaged securities (mainly from America) and also the housing bubble encouraged by Labour. Labour under Blair were basically Tories.

 

Focussing on financial services benefits the elite. Thatcher oversaw the moving (as did Reagan) of manufacturing over to the East. This benefits the eltie two fold, they cut the balls off the unions and they move Govt into an arena they have no clue about (Financial sector).

 

Original deregulation clamourers were Tories back in the day.

 

Society will not change till the Banking system is de-clawed. I said a decade ago on NO that the final battle will be against the Banks and their proxy armies.

 

I can still remember that speech the idotically grinning Brown made at the City of London as he quaffed Champagne and iirc the FSA was also set up by him -that removed BOE oversight. Us 'lefties' are way to the left of Labour and that's the disconnect.

Edited May 4, 2015 by Park Life

[ChezGiven 0]

Because i've been saying the same thing on here for so long, its virtually a thing.

 

Nae need for the expletives either touchy-pants.

[Park Life 70]

Because i've been saying the same thing on here for so long, its virtually a thing.

 

Nae need for the expletives either touchy-pants.

You of all people should know I don't mean it.

 

Btw Miliband is looking like a proper left winger of the old school type although to a certain extent he has to camouflage this.

Edited May 4, 2015 by Park Life

[PaddockLad 14646]

Dont think some of these Scots nats have got the hang of this democracy lark...

 

Scottish independence activists ambush Labour election rally

http://gu.com/p/484t6

[Rayvin 4964]

FFS, this situation is ridiculous in general. We're going to be landed with the Tories because the SNP have killed Labour's chances in an attempt to liberate themselves from...the Tories.

 

I can't work out if I think it's Labour's fault, the SNP's fault, or if the Tories have just played a fucking blinder and manipulated both sides. Sadly, I think it's probably the latter.

[Gemmill 34698]

I reckon Miliband will end up PM personally.

 

Here's a great stat attack for you:

 

Ukip has more candidates called Dave or Steve than it has women

 

http://i100.independent.co.uk/article/ukip-has-more-men-called-dave-or-steve-than-it-has-women--xy8_P6r6wx

[Rayvin 4964]

http://www.theguardian.com/politics/2015/may/04/breathtaking-surge-of-tory-tactical-votes-to-save-nick-clegg-in-hallam-poll

 

If ever there was proof that our system is broken beyond all repair, this is it. Clegg is having his seat saved by tactical Tory voting without which he'd be ousted.

Edited May 4, 2015 by Rayvin

[NJS 3986]

I don't see that much of a problem with outing the liberals as vermin cohorts (soz Meenz).

[Kid Dynamite 5941]

I reckon Miliband will end up PM personally.

 

Here's a great stat attack for you:

 

Ukip has more candidates called Dave or Steve than it has women

 

http://i100.independent.co.uk/article/ukip-has-more-men-called-dave-or-steve-than-it-has-women--xy8_P6r6wx

I heard the UKIP party political broadcast in the radio the other day. I can genuinely imagine the nazi party coming out with similarly disarming lines back in the 1930s

[Gemmill 34698]

Their party political broadcast where Farage is stood in his barbour and flat cap staring out over the channel from the white cliffs of Dover. [emoji38]

 

Should have had him spray painting NO THANKS WE'RE FULL on the cliff.

[Kevin Carr's Gloves 3218]

 

Dont think some of these Scots nats have got the hang of this democracy lark...

 

Scottish independence activists ambush Labour election rally

 

http://gu.com/p/484t6

Firstly the "rally" was about 50 people bussed in from elsewhere. Second the SNP counter demonstration was 4 unaffiliated blokes with a loud hailer. The physical altercation happened when the labour party wallys decided to physically move the nats.

[JJ 0]

The scuffle today seems totally overblown to be honest. Not condoning the eejits who felt the need to follow Labour around just to shout at them. Can't see the point.

 

The fall of the Scottish Labour Party is nothing to do with the Conservatives as was mentioned earlier. It's been happening slowly for years, and it all came to a head after the independence referendum where the Labour Party were hand in glove with the Tories without having anything of use to say. I genuinely can't remember a single useful thing that came from the Labour Party out of that. They just hammered home the Red Tory line that's been thrown at them by some for a while. It doesn't help that many of them seem to watch to tactically swap votes with Tories to try and keep the SNP out in some places. I know there's a lot of Conservatives who are voting Labour to save Jim Murphy's skin, and in Berwickshire, Roxburgh and Selkirk, the Labour candidate will be largely ignored (polling about 6%) as Labour members down there vote Tory.

 

I'll be voting Green on Thursday, but I can absolutely see why anyone with a left of centre viewpoint is deserting Labour up here and voting SNP instead.

 

At the end of the day our democracy up here hasn't really mattered at Westminster for a while anyway. We sent 41 Labour MP's and 1 Tory last time and got the Tories. Life was much easier for the Westminster establishment when we just shut up and voted Labour. Now we've stopped doing that it's apparently an "affront to democracy." You couldn't make it up.

 

As I say I won't be voting SNP on Thursday, but cannot blame a single person for doing just that. The Labour Party in it's current form either needs badly reformed or completely replaced. They're being replaced up here. Let's hope that they figure it out and rediscover their radical history, instead of marching to the beat of the Tory drum on welfare and austerity, and pandering to UKIP on immigration all to not scare off middle England.

 

Once proper Labour comes back, people might reconsider.

[PaddockLad 14646]

The scuffle today seems totally overblown to be honest. Not condoning the eejits who felt the need to follow Labour around just to shout at them. Can't see the point.

 

The fall of the Scottish Labour Party is nothing to do with the Conservatives as was mentioned earlier. It's been happening slowly for years, and it all came to a head after the independence referendum where the Labour Party were hand in glove with the Tories without having anything of use to say. I genuinely can't remember a single useful thing that came from the Labour Party out of that. They just hammered home the Red Tory line that's been thrown at them by some for a while. It doesn't help that many of them seem to watch to tactically swap votes with Tories to try and keep the SNP out in some places. I know there's a lot of Conservatives who are voting Labour to save Jim Murphy's skin, and in Berwickshire, Roxburgh and Selkirk, the Labour candidate will be largely ignored (polling about 6%) as Labour members down there vote Tory.

 

I'll be voting Green on Thursday, but I can absolutely see why anyone with a left of centre viewpoint is deserting Labour up here and voting SNP instead.

 

At the end of the day our democracy up here hasn't really mattered at Westminster for a while anyway. We sent 41 Labour MP's and 1 Tory last time and got the Tories. Life was much easier for the Westminster establishment when we just shut up and voted Labour. Now we've stopped doing that it's apparently an "affront to democracy." You couldn't make it up.

 

As I say I won't be voting SNP on Thursday, but cannot blame a single person for doing just that. The Labour Party in it's current form either needs badly reformed or completely replaced. They're being replaced up here. Let's hope that they figure it out and rediscover their radical history, instead of marching to the beat of the Tory drum on welfare and austerity, and pandering to UKIP on immigration all to not scare off middle England.

 

Once proper Labour comes back, people might reconsider.

 

Labour have only won in the UK though when it has moved to the centre and won lots of seats in the south of England. I thought I read during the referendum that Labour would still have been returned three times under Blair even if theyd won no seats in Scotland? And if you think my elderly parents who live near Kelso would vote for anyone other than Labour, least of all the fuckin tories, then youve another think coming

 

Labour dont get any real following in the area because the people are pretty conservatve with a small "c" by nature, lots of farmers etc, up to their gills in EU subsidies etc. Even then they've returned a Liberal/Lib Dem since David Steel was elected in the 60s, local boy etc. Next door in Dumfries & Tweedale theyve got Scotlands only tory, and always have had one as far I can remember, its a pretty different area from the rest of Scotland.

 

Overall though whilst I agree with a lot of the SNP policies I find the notion of the break up of the UK pretty unpalatable. I think, for all their "anti Westminster" retoric, the SNP leadership are just the other side of the coin to Nigel Farage, just manipulating people's base prejudices. in this case the anti English scab that lurks within a lot of Scots, waiting to be scratched. Why should Scotland have the ability to remove themsleves from the rest of Labour voting UK?...why create a very hard border when across the planet the world seems to be on the move with barriers basically stormed by huge waves of immigration? I understand that an independant Scotand will welcome immigrants but it seems a pretty strange way to go about it i.e. alienating people on the same Islands who they have a huge amount more in common with e.g. the industrial cities of the north of Ehgland, south Wales etc..

[Alex 30495]

I heard the UKIP party political broadcast in the radio the other day. I can genuinely imagine the nazi party coming out with similarly disarming lines back in the 1930s

I find it quite comforting that their support has dropped off as their rhetoric has become more extreme though

[Kevin Carr's Gloves 3218]

 

Labour have only won in the UK though when it has moved to the centre and won lots of seats in the south of England. I thought I read during the referendum that Labour would still have been returned three times under Blair even if theyd won no seats in Scotland? And if you think my elderly parents who live near Kelso would vote for anyone other than Labour, least of all the fuckin tories, then youve another think coming

 

Labour dont get any real following in the area because the people are pretty conservatve with a small "c" by nature, lots of farmers etc, up to their gills in EU subsidies etc. Even then they've returned a Liberal/Lib Dem since David Steel was elected in the 60s, local boy etc. Next door in Dumfries & Tweedale theyve got Scotlands only tory, and always have had one as far I can remember, its a pretty different area from the rest of Scotland.

 

Overall though whilst I agree with a lot of the SNP policies I find the notion of the break up of the UK pretty unpalatable. I think, for all their "anti Westminster" retoric, the SNP leadership are just the other side of the coin to Nigel Farage, just manipulating people's base prejudices. in this case the anti English scab that lurks within a lot of Scots, waiting to be scratched. Why should Scotland have the ability to remove themsleves from the rest of Labour voting UK?...why create a very hard border when across the planet the world seems to be on the move with barriers basically stormed by huge waves of immigration? I understand that an independant Scotand will welcome immigrants but it seems a pretty strange way to go about it i.e. alienating people on the same Islands who they have a huge amount more in common with e.g. the industrial cities of the north of Ehgland, south Wales etc..

The SNP is not anti english.