Politics

[Rayvin 4964]

Actually, to take another go at that - I'm not saying Labour aren't much better because they won't bring it back. This isn't about whether Labour are "good" or not. They're clearly  party made up of far more compassionate and thoughtful people than the Tories.

 

This is about the fact that in continuously conceding arguments, they are giving up far, far too much ground. This is incredibly dangerous, and means we are losing things that we will not get back. And we won't get them back because no one will make the case for them out of fear.

 

Can you not see how that only leads in one direction. More slowly, but still the same way. I reject the idea that it has to be this way.

[Gemmill 34508]

Just now, Rayvin said:

 

I disagree with the premise that Labour can't win using truth. They're running scared, but they don't have to be.

 

The truth is irrelevant now. It's horrific but that's reality. They can spend the next two years trying to tell the truth about Brexit and they'll sink without trace in the polls with the Tory press all over them. Johnson would be resurgent and in his fucking element - given free rein to tell lies about his favourite topic.

 

Or they can watch from the sidelines as Johnson lurches from crisis to crisis, try to land the odd jab, and hope to land the haymaker in by elections or at a GE. 

 

Thats the world we live in. We either adapt to it and try and win on those terms or we hand everything over. 

[Rayvin 4964]

Just now, Gemmill said:

 

The truth is irrelevant now. It's horrific but that's reality. They can spend the next two years trying to tell the truth about Brexit and they'll sink without trace in the polls with the Tory press all over them. Johnson would be resurgent and in his fucking element - given free rein to tell lies about his favourite topic.

 

Or they can watch from the sidelines as Johnson lurches from crisis to crisis, try to land the odd jab, and hope to land the haymaker in by elections or at a GE. 

 

Thats the world we live in. We either adapt to it and try and win on those terms or we hand everything over. 

 

When does the truth come back if we do that?

 

Listen to what you're saying man ffs. Someone, somewhere, somehow needs to actually stand up for what we consider to be values in our society. I know it's scary, but it is the only way anything is ever actually going to get better. As opposed to 'getting bad more slowly' which seems to be what you're content with.

[Gemmill 34508]

I just don't see the Hollywood ending that you can see to all of this. I just want some sort of government in charge where I don't have to be livid or embarrassed at the state of us. I think that's now the best we can hope for barring some sort of societal collapse/rebuild. 

 

I'm pleased I don't have kids to worry about. 

[Tom 13861]

 

 

Do we have any faith in Starmer to reverse polio or should I be downing pints of shitwater now? 

 

 

[Rayvin 4964]

1 minute ago, Gemmill said:

I just don't see the Hollywood ending that you can see to all of this. I just want some sort of government in charge where I don't have to be livid or embarrassed at the state of us. I think that's now the best we can hope for barring some sort of societal collapse/rebuild. 

 

I'm pleased I don't have kids to worry about. 

 

What I'm sat here wondering is how in the jaded, misanthropic nightmare of my perception of reality, I'm the one who is standing here with any hope.

 

Did not see that coming.

[scoobos 297]

26 minutes ago, Rayvin said:

 

That might be your point. I'd rather we were shouting loudly about our principles and seeking to reclaim lost ground, not accepting an ever lower drop through the floor. Your position permits for Labour to come in periodically and stop the rot for a few years while being terrified of reversing anything that might lose them votes, and then for the Tories to get back in and destroy even more. That is staggered decline. We need to win and build, and to do that we need to actually stand up for what we believe in, at some fucking point.

 

I'm really kind of amazed at how cowed we've become.

A theme from the other thread. I'm interested to know what you are doing , I'm not going to assume that it's "nothing".

But we've discussed that rallies, charitable donations, protest are no good on a systemic level 

and , in this thread

That voting for a party other than Tory might not be done if they don't match your specific personal needs. 

That for me, is the definition of being cowed - and (capital I ) I am not cowed. Doing something is always better than not (voting, protesting, writing to your MP etc). 

If everyone who gave a shit really did write to their MP , given that they are legally obliged to answer - we'd fuck them completely. 
If 10% go to London we could burn them out (I'm not suggesting that, but its a fact) the police force and public services are stripped so hard they could not stop 2 million people, let alone 6.

It's easy to shrug shoulders, have strong opinions but be apathetic, its harder to be the change you want to see. I know i keep playing the bleeding heart liberal, but I have made the changes I want to see at pretty huge personal cost, but I'd do it again in a heartbeat. Why? Because of my own personal motives , it has to be said - but I'd like to think without the childhood abuse and CPTSD I'd still act rather than sit and complain. I've been homeless, I've been a soldier, I've had some terrible times as a youngster in a very well to do town - and I've learnt that people are people, no matter what their background is - and there are good and bad in all. No one treated me better in my whole life than the homeless community who guided and protected me at 15 years old when I lived in a shopping centre in Leeds.
(put violin away

The army and its training to look after each other, use the buddy buddy system - that's where my influence come from and its the same message, don't prejudge and look after each other - gratitude , trust and belonging are some of the most important things above basic needs of food and shelter and it breeds positivity.

This government stands for the absolute opposite - its bullingdon club, victorian class system thinking and we need to fight the ENEMY, not each other.

I'm feeling a build guilty now even writing this - as I feel that it may seem like a personal attack and its not , its a response to my own triggers on disguised apathy and if I've got it all wrong, apologies.

Edited June 22, 2022 by scoobos
fuckwit.

[Renton 17799]

13 minutes ago, scoobos said:

The covid pandemic, it happened to thousands of disabled people , and some of them not so disabled. I'll find a link later if you're interested. 

 

I think we're already there. They didn't resuscitate my sister and she most definitely was not DNR. Killed me when I found out, cryingin my office in front of colleagues. I do think it was for probably for the best but still it would have been nice for us to have an informed choice. I couldn't bare the pain of challenging the management, so let it go. 

[Gemmill 34508]

3 minutes ago, Rayvin said:

 

What I'm sat here wondering is how in the jaded, misanthropic nightmare of my perception of reality, I'm the one who is standing here with any hope.

 

Did not see that coming.

 

And yet I think my resignment to the situation might actually make me the happier of the two of us.

 

For me there's at least some hope for the next election. I'm not sure you even have that. 

 

[Renton 17799]

11 minutes ago, Rayvin said:

 

When does the truth come back if we do that?

 

Listen to what you're saying man ffs. Someone, somewhere, somehow needs to actually stand up for what we consider to be values in our society. I know it's scary, but it is the only way anything is ever actually going to get better. As opposed to 'getting bad more slowly' which seems to be what you're content with.

 

Listen to Gemmill man ffs.

 

No seriously, what he's written is objective fact. It's where we are, it's reality. You have to deal with the real world in order to change anything. Starmer is doing that, albeit imperfectly. He has a very strong shadow cabinet to improve things only if he ever comes to power. 

[Renton 17799]

8 minutes ago, Tom said:

 

 

Do we have any faith in Starmer to reverse polio or should I be downing pints of shitwater now? 

 

 

 

Fucking hell, we're going back to 50s let alone the 70s. Bring out the iron lungs. 

[scoobos 297]

6 minutes ago, Renton said:

 

I think we're already there. They didn't resuscitate my sister and she most definitely was not DNR. Killed me when I found out, cryingin my office in front of colleagues. I do think it was for probably for the best but still it would have been nice for us to have an informed choice. I couldn't bare the pain of challenging the management, so let it go. 

Holy fuck I'm sorry to hear that mate , and apologies for the trigger. I don't know whether to speak more or less about it - but it's one of the many untold horrors of how the UK dealt with this pandemic. (and in some cases continues to).

[Gemmill 34508]

9 minutes ago, Tom said:

 

 

Do we have any faith in Starmer to reverse polio or should I be downing pints of shitwater now? 

 

 

 

Someone let Rees-Mogg know. Our first Brexit dividend.

 

Bust out the leg calipers, we've got Polio back guys!

[Renton 17799]

Just now, scoobos said:

Holy fuck I'm sorry to hear that mate , and apologies for the trigger. I don't know whether to speak more or less about it - but it's one of the many untold horrors of how the UK dealt with this pandemic. (and in some cases continues to).

 

Naah, let's leave it, don't want to derail the thread. I don't blame the medics, they were under incredible pressure, but its symptomatic of the failings of this horrendous government. 

[scoobos 297]

7 minutes ago, Gemmill said:

 

Someone let Rees-Mogg know. Our first Brexit dividend.

 

Bust out the leg calipers, we've got Polio back guys!

Ironically, one of the few people I know for sure voted Brexit, caught Polio in Blackpool beach seawater in the 60's or 70s. Back when we didnt have these safety regulations that the EU imposed on us.

[Rayvin 4964]

3 hours ago, scoobos said:

A theme from the other thread. I'm interested to know what you are doing , I'm not going to assume nothing.

But we've discussed that rallies, charitable donations, protest are no good on a systemic level 

and , in this thread

That voting for a party other than Tory might not be done if they don't match your specific personal needs. 

That for me, is the definition of being cowed - and (capital I ) I am not cowed. Doing something is always better than not (voting, protesting, writing to your MP etc). 

If everyone who gave a shit really did write to their MP , given that they are legally obliged to answer - we'd fuck them completely. 
If 10% go to London we could burn them out (I'm not suggesting that, but its a fact) the police force and public services are stripped so hard they could not stop 2 million people, let alone 6.

It's easy to shrug shoulders, have strong opinions but be apathetic, its harder to be the change you want to see. I know i keep playing the bleeding heart liberal, but I have made the changes I want to see at pretty huge personal cost, but I'd do it again in a heartbeat. Why? Because of my own personal motives , it has to be said - but I'd like to think without the childhood abuse and CPTSD I'd still act rather than sit and complain. I've been homeless, I've been a soldier, I've had some terrible times as a youngster in a very well to do town - and I've learnt that people are people, no matter what their background is - and there are good and bad in all. No one treated me better in my whole life than the homeless community who guided and protected me at 15 years old when I lived in a shopping centre in Leeds. The army and its training to look after each other, use the buddy buddy system - that's where my influence come from and its the same message, don't prejudge and look after each other - gratitude , trust and belonging are some of the most important things above basic needs of food and shelter and it breeds positivity.

This government stands for the absolute opposite - its bullingdon club, victorian class system thinking and we need to fight the ENEMY, not each other.

I'm feeling a build guilty now even writing this - as I feel that it may seem like a personal attack and its not , its a response to my own triggers on disguised apathy and if I've got it all wrong, apologies.

 

You have a view of me that I don't recognise but you've had it for quite some time so I'm just going to accept that it is what it is. For what it's worth, I'm not talking about not voting. I just probably won't vote Labour. Like you, I base my voting on manifestos. I'll vote Green, maybe LD. Whatever aligns better.

 

If you see me as cowed, I can live with that. I see anyone who accepts this pathetic trudge into oblivion as cowed. I agree on actual uprising being a mechanism to force change by the way, but that's very unlikely in the UK. If you think I just sit and complain, on the basis of precisely zero personal information about me, that's up to you. For me, you are just a human being with a view. That's it. That's the sum total of everything you represent to me, no more or less than any other. So don't worry about a 'personal attack' because honestly, you don't have anywhere near enough information about me to make one.

 

I'm not apathetic by the way, or I wouldn't be here standing up for what I believe in in the midst of all this noise. I have the views I have because I care.

 

<detail about my work, edited out after clearing up misunderstanding> Does this better equip you to judge me?

 

 

 

 

 

[ewerk 26394]

On 26/07/2017 at 13:51, Christmas Tree said:

 

And some of us told you last year it may take 5 or 10 years for it to be ecomically beneficial. 

 

As for the why, it involves cake and eating it. Once the willy waving is over we will end up doing the same amount of trade with the EU as we do now and will have new trade deals with some of the fastest growing economies on the planet.

 

It will be awesome.

 

Five years later:

 

 

Awesome.

[Gemmill 34508]

1 minute ago, scoobos said:

Ironically, one of the few people I know for sure voted Brexit, caught Polio in Blackpool beach seawater in the 60's or 70s. Back when we didnt have these safety regulations that the EU imposed on us.

 

Nearly all of my family did. Including my sister who has two kids whose futures just got narrower as a result.

 

I'm gonna road test Rayvin's "it's time to tell the truth about Brexit" approach the next time we're all at my mam's house.

 

[Gemmill 34508]

3 minutes ago, scoobos said:

Ironically, one of the few people I know for sure voted Brexit, caught Polio in Blackpool beach seawater in the 60's or 70s. Back when we didnt have these safety regulations that the EU imposed on us.

 

He'll be thrilled. Pints of polio with the crown stamp on them. Just like the good old days. 

[Rayvin 4964]

16 minutes ago, Gemmill said:

 

And yet I think my resignment to the situation might actually make me the happier of the two of us.

 

For me there's at least some hope for the next election. I'm not sure you even have that. 

 

 

If something to be hopeful about becomes evident, I will be hopeful.

[scoobos 297]

4 minutes ago, Rayvin said:

 

You have a view of me that I don't recognise but you've had it for quite some time so I'm just going to accept that it is what it is. For what it's worth, I'm not talking about not voting. I just probably won't vote Labour. Like you, I base my voting on manifestos. I'll vote Green, maybe LD. Whatever aligns better.

 

If you see me as cowed, I can live with that. I see anyone who accepts this pathetic trudge into oblivion as cowed. I agree on actual uprising being a mechanism to force change by the way, but that's very unlikely in the UK. If you think I just sit and complain, on the basis of precisely zero personal information about me, that's up to you. For me, you are just a human being with a view. That's it. That's the sum total of everything you represent to me, no more or less than any other. So don't worry about a 'personal attack' because honestly, you don't have anywhere near enough information about me to make one.

 

I'm not apathetic by the way, or I wouldn't be here standing up for what I believe in in the midst of all this noise. I have the views I have because I care.

 

As for what I do, I don't see what relevance that has to anything but I'll indulge it. I'm a management consultant, spent 6 years as an operations director for a medium sized company, 3 volunteering as a trustee for a mental health charity, and now 3 or 4 working for myself in optimising business workflows, improving efficiency and leveraging data and reporting mechanisms in the pursuit of enabling better decision making. I also do some fund writing for charities focused on supporting care workers and frontline support staff. I have two degrees, neither in history. Does this better equip you to judge me?

 

 

 

 

 

Just like the last time we debated, I'm not making assumptions, I was asking and what else can I do? Not asking is judging.

[Renton 17799]

3 minutes ago, Gemmill said:

 

Nearly all of my family did. Including my sister who has two kids whose futures just got narrower as a result.

 

I'm gonna road test Rayvin's "it's time to tell the truth about Brexit" approach the next time we're all at my mam's house.

 

 

What, your sister had polio? I didn't think I was old enough to potentially know a peer who had it. I just remember the gritty sugar cube they gave you and the plastic lad outside the shops with calippers on his legs and a slot on his head. 

[Renton 17799]

7 minutes ago, Rayvin said:

 

You have a view of me that I don't recognise but you've had it for quite some time so I'm just going to accept that it is what it is. For what it's worth, I'm not talking about not voting. I just probably won't vote Labour. Like you, I base my voting on manifestos. I'll vote Green, maybe LD. Whatever aligns better.

 

If you see me as cowed, I can live with that. I see anyone who accepts this pathetic trudge into oblivion as cowed. I agree on actual uprising being a mechanism to force change by the way, but that's very unlikely in the UK. If you think I just sit and complain, on the basis of precisely zero personal information about me, that's up to you. For me, you are just a human being with a view. That's it. That's the sum total of everything you represent to me, no more or less than any other. So don't worry about a 'personal attack' because honestly, you don't have anywhere near enough information about me to make one.

 

I'm not apathetic by the way, or I wouldn't be here standing up for what I believe in in the midst of all this noise. I have the views I have because I care.

 

As for what I do, I don't see what relevance that has to anything but I'll indulge it. I'm a management consultant, spent 6 years as an operations director for a medium sized company, 3 volunteering as a trustee for a mental health charity, and now 3 or 4 working for myself in optimising business workflows, improving efficiency and leveraging data and reporting mechanisms in the pursuit of enabling better decision making. I also do some fund writing for charities focused on supporting care workers and frontline support staff. I have two degrees, neither in history. Does this better equip you to judge me?

 

 

 

 

 

 

You're uncharacteristically precious and testy today. Just saying.

 

[Rayvin 4964]

Just now, scoobos said:

Just like the last time we debated, I'm not making assumptions, I was asking and what else can I do? Not asking is judging.

 

You're the one who said you felt bad about making a personal attack. And what is it you hoped to do with the information about my profession if not use it in consideration of who I am and the impact any of it has on what I say?

 

I'm not even really challenging you on that tbh, we all make judgements of each other - do what you want.

[Gemmill 34508]

1 minute ago, Renton said:

 

What, your sister had polio? I didn't think I was old enough to potentially know a peer who had it. I just remember the gritty sugar cube they gave you and the plastic lad outside the shops with calippers on his legs and a slot on his head. 

 

 

No she voted for Brexit.