Renton 17784 Posted June 22, 2022 Share Posted June 22, 2022 3 minutes ago, spongebob toonpants said: I'd still vote anti Tory even if the opposition weren't worth voting for is my admittedly self contradictory position. I've voted in every single vote I've been eligible for for 32 years. At this point though I'm not sure the argument that alternative is worse is an argument that holds up though. It's the same argument that was used to get Biden in in America and that's not exactly going well If you don't stand with the workers what's the point of Labour. They are barely a party of the left anymore We are basically following the US into having one extreme Nationalist party and an old school one nation Tory party I think we've lost basically under the present system. We are the boiled frog. Maybe its time to have the whole thing burn and see what rises from the ashes I like this bloke though, we need more like him He's excellent although I'd like to fact check what he says, especially the 500 miilion profit quote. I was under the impression virtually every railway in the world is subsidised? Also he obviously has a different role to Starmer, he doesn't have to worry about being elected by the whole country. He would be unelectable in that context (rightly or wrongly). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Renton 17784 Posted June 22, 2022 Share Posted June 22, 2022 4 minutes ago, spongebob toonpants said: I disagree with this. At some point you have to win the argument or everything will just keep getting worse Do it once you're in power maybe? Just avoid any mention at all of the EU in the manifesto. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rayvin 4964 Posted June 22, 2022 Share Posted June 22, 2022 14 minutes ago, The Fish said: I think you're being reductive. Labour isn't likely to fully privatise the NHS and it's such a anathema for the British public to propose it, not even these Tories would run on it. What Renton is saying (and forgive me if I get this wrong) is that, right now, in this non-hypothetical reality whoever has the best chance to defeat these Tories should be voted for. If 50 yrs into the future, Labour has lurched as far to the left as these Tories have done to the right, and the Tories actually occupy a left-leaning centre position, cyber-Renton may actually vote for them. You've missed my point and I honestly just don't have the energy to open this up to arguing with another person. No disrespect, but what you've just argued is not a pushback on what I said. 14 minutes ago, Renton said: You're resorting to quite ridiculous hypthetical arguments to justify your frankly ludicrous argument here. Lets not deal in hypotheticals. Lets look at the real options in front of us and vote on which we would prefer. If you'd prefer someone else to Johnson, vote against him (for whoever has the best chance of defeating the conservatives in your seat). You're either unaware of the extremely perilous position this country is in or you've given up, I suspect the latter. Why won't we deal in hypotheticals, because it makes the broad sweeping statements about how everyone should vote Labour even if its only a slight improvement actually look a bit stupid? I introduced hypotheticals in an attempt to capture an issue that you feel as strongly about as I do with Brexit. So that you could potentially understand why your solution to me is not a good one. This does not appear to have worked but as far as I can see mate, your position is one of constant dynamic change. The bar gets lowered, you go down with it, still hoping that if you can just get under it once we'll be able to push up again. Meanwhile, the only current truth with this is... the bar is getting lower. The bar has dropped lower than I'm willing to go without compromising more or less everything I believe in. Who are you, I mean any of you really, to tell me that this is a stupid position? You're exactly the same as me about different issues. Your specific configuration of issues that you would stop supporting Labour over hasn't come up yet. How nice that must be. It exists though, and because it exists, I really can't see anything other than blind hypocrisy in this conversation. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gemmill 34497 Posted June 22, 2022 Share Posted June 22, 2022 5 minutes ago, spongebob toonpants said: I disagree with this. At some point you have to win the argument or everything will just keep getting worse That argument is unwinnable in this version of Britain. We've got people genuinely believing that these strikes are the fault of Labour because of a day of social media lies from Tory MPs and the Mail. If the pandemic and the war in Ukraine hadn't happened, you MIGHT be able to take this on, but at the minute it's too easy to blame both those things. The country is already brainwashed, the BBC won't say a bad word about Brexit, the Bank of England won't even use the word. There's no way Labour should take this on. It would be the mother of all own goals. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NJS 3980 Posted June 22, 2022 Share Posted June 22, 2022 1 minute ago, Renton said: Do it once you're in power maybe? Just avoid any mention at all of the EU in the manifesto. As I keep saying they won't do anything in power that threatens that power. Reversing withdrawal from the HRA, the protest bill, any thought of even discussing the SM or CU? - all completely unacceptable to the press and his gammon focus groups so absolutely no chance of them happening. Just like Blair - a few half-decent tinkerings mixed with cuntishness like ATOS is the best we're now allowed - any thought of true change has been excluded from even being discussed as the migration of wealth from poor to rich continues. That's the future. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dr Gloom 19826 Posted June 22, 2022 Share Posted June 22, 2022 this is just bizarre 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dr Gloom 19826 Posted June 22, 2022 Share Posted June 22, 2022 18 minutes ago, spongebob toonpants said: I disagree with this. At some point you have to win the argument or everything will just keep getting worse corbyn "won the argument" last time and look where that got us Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gemmill 34497 Posted June 22, 2022 Share Posted June 22, 2022 7 minutes ago, Dr Gloom said: this is just bizarre Morgan genuinely thinking he's got the upper hand there, as his career circles the drain. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gemmill 34497 Posted June 22, 2022 Share Posted June 22, 2022 Bridget sat behind Starmer at PMQs. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
spongebob toonpants 3604 Posted June 22, 2022 Share Posted June 22, 2022 2 minutes ago, Dr Gloom said: corbyn "won the argument" last time and look where that got us Well thats just not true is it. He wasn't capable of winning the argument because he was a terrible politician and leader. And he followed the don't mention the EU doctrine to the letter and look where that got us 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tom 13858 Posted June 22, 2022 Share Posted June 22, 2022 I might vote green unless Labour's manifesto represents my personal ideology 100% 🙃🙃🙃🙃 2 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gemmill 34497 Posted June 22, 2022 Share Posted June 22, 2022 Why the fuck is Starmer not devoting any of his 6 questions to Johnson ringing around papers to get stories about GOTTLE O' GEER dropped. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dr Gloom 19826 Posted June 22, 2022 Share Posted June 22, 2022 Just now, Gemmill said: Morgan genuinely thinking he's got the upper hand there, as his career circles the drain. the way he posts the viewing numbers on the rare days when his show has better ratings than gb news and sky is so desperate, it's delicious. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ayatollah Hermione 12767 Posted June 22, 2022 Share Posted June 22, 2022 6 minutes ago, Tom said: I might vote green unless Labour's manifesto represents my personal ideology 100% 🙃🙃🙃🙃 Jesus Christ. How in the fucking hell have we ended up here? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tom 13858 Posted June 22, 2022 Share Posted June 22, 2022 Just now, Ayatollah Hermione said: Jesus Christ. How in the fucking hell have we ended up here? **Camera Pans to @Rayvin** Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
spongebob toonpants 3604 Posted June 22, 2022 Share Posted June 22, 2022 Just now, Tom said: **Camera Pans to @Rayvin** That's bollicks and unnecessary 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rayvin 4964 Posted June 22, 2022 Share Posted June 22, 2022 7 minutes ago, Tom said: I might vote green unless Labour's manifesto represents my personal ideology 100% 🙃🙃🙃🙃 Are Labour going to be reversing this on their manifesto, do you think? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rayvin 4964 Posted June 22, 2022 Share Posted June 22, 2022 4 minutes ago, Ayatollah Hermione said: Jesus Christ. How in the fucking hell have we ended up here? We accepted it. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tom 13858 Posted June 22, 2022 Share Posted June 22, 2022 SAFETY WINK for fucks sake 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rayvin 4964 Posted June 22, 2022 Share Posted June 22, 2022 1 minute ago, Tom said: SAFETY WINK for fucks sake To be fair, it is quite clear that for all the safety winks in the world, that is a prevailing view on here It amuses me sometimes to watch people make these comments that clearly apply to other posters (I do this too tbf, in fact this may be an example of it) without actually naming them specifically. I'm fine though, I knew what was going to happen here when I went into this discussion I think it comes down to the sense of scale really - what concerns you more, the Tories or the trend. For me, I think it's the latter. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
spongebob toonpants 3604 Posted June 22, 2022 Share Posted June 22, 2022 10 minutes ago, Gemmill said: Why the fuck is Starmer not devoting any of his 6 questions to Johnson ringing around papers to get stories about GOTTLE O' GEER dropped. I'm at the stage of hoping he gets fined by Durham police. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
spongebob toonpants 3604 Posted June 22, 2022 Share Posted June 22, 2022 Just now, Rayvin said: To be fair, it is quite clear that for all the safety winks in the world, that is a prevailing view on here It amuses me sometimes to watch people make these comments that clearly apply to other posters (I do this too tbf, in fact this may be an example of it) without actually naming them specifically. I'm fine though, I knew what was going to happen here when I went into this discussion I think it comes down to the sense of scale really - what concerns you more, the Tories or the trend. For me, I think it's the latter. I think we all want the same outcome (mostly) just disagree how to achieve it Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gemmill 34497 Posted June 22, 2022 Share Posted June 22, 2022 2 minutes ago, spongebob toonpants said: I'm at the stage of hoping he gets fined by Durham police. Might not be a bad thing. Give Streeting a chance. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rayvin 4964 Posted June 22, 2022 Share Posted June 22, 2022 Just now, spongebob toonpants said: I think we all want the same outcome (mostly) just disagree how to achieve it I believe this too - but I agree with you on this mainly in that at some point someone needs to stand up and make case for what we actually believe in. We do need to win that argument at some stage. I think what others here seem to advocate for is a world where we win power and deliver what we believe in by stealth and idk, maybe that's the right play. But we did that with Blair and for all the progress made under new Labour, things are now worse than I've ever seen them. I think we could perhaps have done with cementing and defending our argument better instead of immediately abandoning it and running in fear of the right wing press. Who will relentlessly hound and attack Labour with or without Labour even doing anything. As we can see. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Renton 17784 Posted June 22, 2022 Share Posted June 22, 2022 1 minute ago, Gemmill said: Might not be a bad thing. Give Streeting a chance. "Oh, Nandy Well, you came And you gave without taking But I sent you away Oh, Nandy Well, you kissed me And stopped me from shaking But I need Streeting today Oh, Nandy" 6 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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