Christmas Tree 3997 Posted February 23, 2013 Author Share Posted February 23, 2013 It's hard though to have an informed debate with the blinkered. I've said all along that we wouldn't recover from this like an old fashioned recession for lots of reason, but particularly no alternative debt bubble to save us as we have had over the last 30 years. The Eurozone economy, our biggest customer, continues to shrink and add that to the overall global slump and there's little hope. I have also said that our economy will bump along the bottom for many years to come, sometimes in growth, sometimes not. I still don't see that changing. Neither does the credit agency. You seem to be left with a choice of battening down the hatches and riding it out or taking a view that there is some magical way out of this which the coalition, the Bank of England and most financial institutions are choosing to ignore. Labour and the Tories both went into the last election with virtually the same plan. Of course in opposition, Labour have tried to distance themselves from their two year old manifesto. Well the would do wouldn't they. Government can only do so much, but while the world and the Eurozone stutter and the credit crunch stats with us, there is no way out of it. If Labour ever come up with a policy of any sort, never mind one to change the economy, then I will judge it with an open mind. But there lack of ANY alternative ideas should tell you all you need to know. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NJS 3986 Posted February 23, 2013 Share Posted February 23, 2013 If Labour ever come up with a policy of any sort, never mind one to change the economy, then I will judge it with an open mind. But there lack of ANY alternative ideas should tell you all you need to know. They could always try what's working for the US. They could also tax the increase in wealth enjoyed by the rich just since 2008 which would clear the deficit at a stroke. One thing I do agree with you on is that Labours are meek cowards - but that's because they are running scared of the ignorant who make up too many people in this country. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Happy Face 29 Posted February 24, 2013 Share Posted February 24, 2013 It's hard though to have an informed debate with the blinkered. Its hard because you ignore the evidence that economists have provided from the last 4 years. Here's some information... http://krugman.blogs.nytimes.com/2013/02/23/austerity-europe-2/ Debate that. I know it seems anathema to spend your way to prosperity. Especially for anyone only taking a view from the headlines, who compares an economy to their household and doesn't delve any deeper. But if you can't get your head around the fact that is ultimately what has to happen, and has happened following previous collapses, then you're the blinkered one. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Happy Face 29 Posted February 24, 2013 Share Posted February 24, 2013 If you don't like the numbers, here's a less mathsy version.... http://krugman.blogs.nytimes.com/2013/02/23/little-statesmen-and-philosophers/ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Christmas Tree 3997 Posted February 24, 2013 Author Share Posted February 24, 2013 Its hard because you ignore the evidence that economists have provided from the last 4 years. Here's some information... http://krugman.blogs.nytimes.com/2013/02/23/austerity-europe-2/ Debate that. I know it seems anathema to spend your way to prosperity. Especially for anyone only taking a view from the headlines, who compares an economy to their household and doesn't delve any deeper. But if you can't get your head around the fact that is ultimately what has to happen, and has happened following previous collapses, then you're the blinkered one. How did Japan get on trying to spend their way to prosperity over the last 20 years? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Happy Face 29 Posted February 24, 2013 Share Posted February 24, 2013 How did Japan get on trying to spend their way to prosperity over the last 20 years? Not sure what you're referring to. "Japan is the world's largest creditor nation, generally running an annual trade surplus and having a considerable net international investment surplus. As of 2010, Japan possesses 13.7% of the world's private financial assets (the 2nd largest in the world) at an estimated $14.6 trillion." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Christmas Tree 3997 Posted February 24, 2013 Author Share Posted February 24, 2013 Not sure what you're referring to. "Japan is the world's largest creditor nation, generally running an annual trade surplus and having a considerable net international investment surplus. As of 2010, Japan possesses 13.7% of the world's private financial assets (the 2nd largest in the world) at an estimated $14.6 trillion." Japan has one of the most complicated financial set upsin the entire world, however its well known that they spent a decade throwing billions at trying to get out of stagnation but couldnt do it. I think a UK government probably could borrow billions and build roads etc and try and kick start the economy, but the problem we have is that with the credit crunch still there, any kick start would not lead to a recovery and would therefore be money down the drain. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Christmas Tree 3997 Posted February 24, 2013 Author Share Posted February 24, 2013 Seems as though a few skeletons are dropping out of Nick Cleggs wardrobe tonight. He has a few rough days ahead. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Meenzer 14063 Posted February 25, 2013 Share Posted February 25, 2013 All part of the Lib Dem plan to get rid of him before the next election. Watch this space... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Happy Face 29 Posted February 25, 2013 Share Posted February 25, 2013 Japan has one of the most complicated financial set upsin the entire world, however its well known that they spent a decade throwing billions at trying to get out of stagnation but couldnt do it. I think a UK government probably could borrow billions and build roads etc and try and kick start the economy, but the problem we have is that with the credit crunch still there, any kick start would not lead to a recovery and would therefore be money down the drain. The credit crunch still there? What does that even mean? What is still there are the banks and bankers and the lack of regulation our government and that of the US have allowed to ride roughshod over the economy. No prison for any of the criminal behaviour that led to the collapse. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Happy Face 29 Posted February 25, 2013 Share Posted February 25, 2013 The credit crunch still there? What does that even mean? What is still there are the banks and bankers (and the lack of regulation) our government and that of the US have allowed to ride roughshod over the economy. No prison for any of the criminal behaviour that led to the collapse. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Christmas Tree 3997 Posted February 25, 2013 Author Share Posted February 25, 2013 All part of the Lib Dem plan to get rid of him before the next election. Watch this space... I think he needs replacing (not because of this story), but who do you want instead? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Christmas Tree 3997 Posted February 25, 2013 Author Share Posted February 25, 2013 The credit crunch still there? What does that even mean? What is still there are the banks and bankers and the lack of regulation our government and that of the US have allowed to ride roughshod over the economy. No prison for any of the criminal behaviour that led to the collapse. It means banks still won't lend to businesses or the public at large. Unless they eventually start (and both Labour and the coalition have been unable to make them), then any kickstart soon dies out. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PaddockLad 14635 Posted February 25, 2013 Share Posted February 25, 2013 (edited) All part of the Lib Dem plan to get rid of him before the next election. Watch this space... I think it may be a "joint op" with the Tories...they really need to win Eastleigh and have a fuckin buffoon as a candidate I think he needs replacing (not because of this story), but who do you want instead? Surely thats irrelevant to Tories as the next coalition partner for the Libdems will be Labour If the Tories lose Eastleigh to the Libdems it could end the present coalition sooner rather than later Edited February 25, 2013 by PaddockLad Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Christmas Tree 3997 Posted February 25, 2013 Author Share Posted February 25, 2013 I think it may be a "joint op" with the Tories...they really need to win Eastleigh and have a fuckin buffoon as a candidate Surely thats irrelevant to Tories as the next coalition partner for the Libdems will be Labour If the Tories lose Eastleigh to the Libdems it could end the present coalition sooner rather than later The coalition won't end early and Im not sure why you think the outcome of Eastleigh would make a difference. More just wondering who he fancys for the job, safe Vincent or Fallon or the spotty ginger kid. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PaddockLad 14635 Posted February 25, 2013 Share Posted February 25, 2013 The coalition won't end early and Im not sure why you think the outcome of Eastleigh would make a difference. More just wondering who he fancys for the job, safe Vincent or Fallon or the spotty ginger kid. Because the back benchers will lynch Dave for his inablitiy to win elections that are virtually an open goal? see the last general election, he couldnt put Gordon fuckin Brown away Not taking Eastleigh from the lib dems when theyre at their lowest point in their history won't look good...this is why they may have a hand in the knifing of Clegg at the weekend. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Christmas Tree 3997 Posted February 25, 2013 Author Share Posted February 25, 2013 Can't see Cameron getting the chop until Boris is finished with London. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PaddockLad 14635 Posted February 25, 2013 Share Posted February 25, 2013 (edited) Thats true, but a lib dem win in Eastleigh will wound him badly, possibly fatally general election wise. So as I say, for Tories such as your good self, the next lib dem leader is a bit irrelevent Edited February 25, 2013 by PaddockLad Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Christmas Tree 3997 Posted February 25, 2013 Author Share Posted February 25, 2013 I'm interested in politics though, not just the Tories (opposite of football) I love the theatre, the drama and the dark arts. The actual effects on the real world is less interesting as overall, life changes little depending who wins. I also know that bye elections matter little to general elections, particularly given the volatile landscape of the next two years. All to play for Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gemmill 34622 Posted February 25, 2013 Share Posted February 25, 2013 YOUR life changes little depending who wins. There are a lot of people whose lives are changing immeasurably since this latest lot won. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Happy Face 29 Posted February 25, 2013 Share Posted February 25, 2013 It means banks still won't lend to businesses or the public at large. Unless they eventually start (and both Labour and the coalition have been unable to make them), then any kickstart soon dies out. The availability of secured credit to households rose significantly in the final three months of 2012 – setting a new high since the survey began in 2007. http://www.telegraph.co.uk/finance/economics/9777765/UK-banks-significantly-increase-lending-for-mortgages-and-business-says-Bank-of-England-credit-survey.html Not sure why someone who blames the public and their unaffordable levels of borrowing for the crash would want to get back to pre-crunch levels of lending, but there we are. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Christmas Tree 3997 Posted February 25, 2013 Author Share Posted February 25, 2013 The availability of secured credit to households rose significantly in the final three months of 2012 – setting a new high since the survey began in 2007. http://www.telegraph.co.uk/finance/economics/9777765/UK-banks-significantly-increase-lending-for-mortgages-and-business-says-Bank-of-England-credit-survey.html Not sure why someone who blames the public and their unaffordable levels of borrowing for the crash would want to get back to pre-crunch levels of lending, but there we are. I didn't say I did I was simply giving you my reasons why throwing money at jump starting the economy is doomed to fail. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Happy Face 29 Posted February 25, 2013 Share Posted February 25, 2013 I didn't say I did I was simply giving you my reasons why throwing money at jump starting the economy is doomed to fail. I thought that was the Tory view in a nutshell. We've been overspending and can't afford things like an NHS or Disability living allowance and they need to cut costs so we can pay the debts accrued on paying for them in the past. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Christmas Tree 3997 Posted February 25, 2013 Author Share Posted February 25, 2013 I thought that was the Tory view in a nutshell. We've been overspending and can't afford things like an NHS or Disability living allowance and they need to cut costs so we can pay the debts accrued on paying for them in the past. One discussion at a time dear boy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Happy Face 29 Posted February 25, 2013 Share Posted February 25, 2013 One discussion at a time dear boy I thought when I posted it, "hang on, what am I actually arguing here?" Considered editing but couldn't be arsed. Hung over and all over the shop here. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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