Politics

[Gemmill 34856]

I'm not saying nothing is happening btw. I'm just wondering wtf is actually happening for people to be so preoccupied.

[Dr Gloom 19879]

I genuinely find it bizarre to identify with a religion so much that anti-my-religion is a significant concern in your life.

 

What is actually happening in the Labour Party to conjure all of these accusations. I hear endless accusations of anti semitism but I haven't heard what concrete, tangible stuff is actually happening.

Being Jewish is more than a religion. They are a people. There are plenty of non religious Jews out there.

 

And there are plenty of concrete examples of Labour's antisemitism problem in this thread. Naz Shah, Ken Livingstone, the deputy chair of Momentum et al

[NJS 3986]

My senior boss is Jewish but I just see him as a manc who's a really decent bloke. I think Gemmills trying to say that defining yourself strongly by any criteria to the degree that they and I'd also say other religious groups do in the 21st century is questionable. I'm all for a sense of identity but keeping that going through migrations over so long a period with a lot of "dilution" along the way does make people see them as a bit "stubborn".

 

No excuse for any maltreatment of course but the human psychosis of seeing "outsiders" probably lies behind it.

[PaddockLad 14665]

Strikes me as point scoring by the hard left'a opponents, mostly due to the hard left's suicidal habit of saying stuff that shouldn't really be said, regardless of it's veracity. Livingstone said what he believed and others twisted it for their own ends, same with the momentum woman. It's ok to disagree with what they say, but to pigeonhole it all as antisemitism is just wilfully snide and exploiting what for some are valid points about the state of Israel and those who govern it.

[Alex 30536]

It's a good way of shutting down debate though, isn't it?

[Dr Gloom 19879]

livingtone is an old dinosaur tbf and his removal from frontline politics had to come after what he said. naz shah has already admitted herself that her comments were antisemitic and yet she's welcomed back to the party - what message does that send out? it's ok to be a racist MP as long as you apologise?  

 

you have to make a distinction between being anti-israeli government policy and antisemitic. the problem for labour is too often in its recent past, the lines have been blurred. i don't see it as point scoring from corbyn's opponents. it's a serious issue the party has to address, and which he's failed to resolve as leader so far, as evidenced by the home affairs select committee and elsewhere. 

[Gemmill 34856]

How is it a serious issue though? Two fucking dopes have made comments that they've apologised for, and yet every other day there's headlines about anti semitism in the labour party.

 

Is that genuinely it, those two comments from Livingston and Shah?

 

If there's this core of anti semitism running through the party, I'd expect to be hearing about concrete incidents. But all I hear is this regular sort of static noise of "anti semitism in the Labour party" with nothing really of substance to back it up.

 

Like I say, if it's there, let's hear about it. I've no interest in it being covered up, I'd just like to know what is actually going on to warrant this daily white noise.

 

I fully admit that as a white, non-religious, non-Jewish person, I might just not be able to grasp this, but my underlying position is "just fucking be a person in the world" and stop worrying about who might be pro or anti your group. I know that there are oppressed groups of people, but unless I'm completely missing something, the Labour Party really doesn't feel like it's posing that much of a threat to Jewish people. And certainly not enough to justify the constant coverage in the papers.

[NJS 3986]

Tends not to really work though - as soon as anyone's says "The Israeli government acted like cunts" it will be followed a second later by "anti-Semitism" which helps nobody.

 

It should be easy to say there's a difference between that and things like that Bradford lass said which I think was as blatant as "big nosed" but they both end up being cited as a problem for Corbyn or the party.

 

I agree on the apology thing but you can contrast that with racist comments that Johnson's made which he hasn't even attempted to excuse.

[Dr Gloom 19879]

How is it a serious issue though? Two fucking dopes have made comments that they've apologised for, and yet every other day there's headlines about anti semitism in the labour party.

 

Is that genuinely it, those two comments from Livingston and Shah?

 

If there's this core of anti semitism running through the party, I'd expect to be hearing about concrete incidents. But all I hear is this regular sort of static noise of "anti semitism in the Labour party" with nothing really of substance to back it up.

 

Like I say, if it's there, let's hear about it. I've no interest in it being covered up, I'd just like to know what is actually going on to warrant this daily white noise.

 

I fully admit that as a white, non-religious, non-Jewish person, I might just not be able to grasp this, but my underlying position is "just fucking be a person in the world" and stop worrying about who might be pro or anti your group. I know that there are oppressed groups of people, but unless I'm completely missing something, the Labour Party really doesn't feel like it's posing that much of a threat to Jewish people. And certainly not enough to justify the constant coverage in the papers.

 

here are some concrete examples as recent as the labour conference the other week

 

‘Anti-Semitic, Racist’ Leaflets Distributed Outside Momentum Event

http://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/entry/labour-party-conference-2016-anti-semitic-racist-leaflets-distributed-outside-momentum-event_uk_57e8c2eae4b0e81629aa08f4

 

Luton Labour councillor suspended over Hitler tweet

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-beds-bucks-herts-36009544

 

Jewish Labour movement heckled on stage at Labour's Party conference 

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2016/09/27/jewish-labour-movement-heckled-on-stage-at-labours-party-confere/

[Dr Gloom 19879]

corbyn just doesn't do himself any favours. it's not a jewish media conspiracy ffs. he could lock it down himself not defending his brother for example.

 

 

 

Jeremy Corbyn has been accused by a Jewish leader of failing to take anti-Semitism seriously - but the Labour leader promised an "immediate" investigation of any allegations.

Board of Deputies president Jonathan Arkush attacked Mr Corbyn's "deeply disturbing" response to a tweet by his brother criticising a Jewish Labour MP.

 

Labour is currently investigating allegations of anti-Semitism including in its Oxford University branch, and last month it suspended one of its members for posting anti-Semitic tweets.

 

After Labour MP Louise Ellman said more needed to be done and that cracking down on such behaviour was "not just about words", Mr Corbyn's brother Pierst tweeted saying this was "rubbish".

 

According to The Sun, when asked about his brother's tweet, Mr Corbyn said: "My brother has his point of view, I have mine and we actually fundamentally agree - we are a family that were brought up fighting racism from the day we were born."

 

Mr Arkush said: "Jeremy Corbyn's defence of his brother's belittling of the problem of anti-Semitism is deeply disturbing.

 

"We cannot imagine that any other minority's concerns would be dismissed off-hand in this way."

[NJS 3986]

So saying someone's opinion is rubbish is now anti-Semitic if it involves Jews?

[Rayvin 4964]

All that tells me is that Corbyn doesn't believe Labour has an anti-semitism problem. That's not exactly anti-semitic. He's entitled to his opinion, and to be honest, if he came out and said they did, what exactly do you expect the press would do then?

 

Far better to just tackle it case by case and generally play it down. It seems to be a very small number of individuals who are even being caught up in this.

[Park Life 70]

The wider Labour Party and Corbyn are fully supportive of the Palestinian cause and this irritates various elements within and without the UK hence the continual mud slinging.

 

Jeremy Corbyn described unspecified Israeli politicians as “criminal” and criticised the fairness of BBC coverage of Palestine, in a letter to William Hague written two years before he became Labour leader.

The letter is one of a series written by Mr Corbyn to Foreign Office ministers, released following a Freedom of Information request.

The Labour leader has been a longstanding and outspoken critic of Israel’s illegal settlements in Palestinian territory and its blockade of Gaza. 

In a letter to Mr Hague, the then Foreign Secretary, in March 2013, he describes a recent visit to Gaza, which he said resembled “one huge suffering refugee camp”.

“At one of the meetings I attended I was asked if we would, at the very least, a) stop allowing Israel’s criminal politicians to come to our country freely, if we would ensure the BBC portray Palestine fairly and c) if we would end the siege of Gaza,” he writes.

 

 

http://www.timesofisrael.com/jeremy-corbyns-son-helps-stage-pro-palestinian-play-on-campus/

 

Smears of anti-Semitism against Corbyn started even before he was elected.

During his leadership campaign in the summer of 2015, the establishment media worked itself into a frenzy of anti-Corbyn hysteria, led more than any other paper by the liberal Guardian.

One of the recurring themes in this campaign was Corbyn’s long-standing support for Palestinian human rights.

Because of this, attempts were made to say outright, or to imply, that Corbyn was a secret anti-Semite, or that he associated with, or tolerated “notorious” anti-Semites.

Although these hit jobs gained some traction, they were soon debunked, and ultimately seemed to have little impact on the leadership election.

This dishonest theme is now being revisited. In February, the slow drip of anti-Semitism scare stories burst into a flood.

 

https://electronicintifada.net/content/how-israel-lobby-manufactured-uk-labour-partys-anti-semitism-crisis/16481

[Dr Gloom 19879]

So saying someone's opinion is rubbish is now anti-Semitic if it involves Jews?

 

No, but dismissing the problem as something that doesn't need to be addressed isn't exactly an example of strong leadership im the light of recent events.

Edited October 17, 2016 by Dr Gloom

[Dr Gloom 19879]

I knew it would only be a matter of time till the board's biggest antsemite took the bait

[Park Life 70]

 

 

No, but dismissing the problem as something that doesn't need to be addressed isn't exactly an example of strong leadership im the light of recent events.

 

The problem is that any criticism of Israel is verboten.

[Rayvin 4964]

No, but dismissing the problem as something that doesn't need to be addressed isn't exactly an example of strong leadership im the light of recent events.

 

I guess that's true. It does all rather feel like a distraction though. Corbyn is the first non-Zionist sympathetic leader Labour have had in some time, right? It's a natural stick for his enemies to beat him with.

 

I wish they'd all just stop squabbling and get back to attempting to put on a united front, but it looks like the course has been set already. The press will spend the next 4 years making Labour look disunited and rebellious.

[Park Life 70]

UK politicians aren't allowed to criticize Israel or stand up for Palestine. If they do they are dragged through the mud.

[Gemmill 34856]

Those three incidents:

 

- anti-israel leaflets distributed by a group which, whilst heavily affiliated with the Labour Party are not the actual party.

 

- deplorable comments in twitter by some dope that is immediately suspended from the party.

 

- "Mr Katz received two standing ovations when he said his organisation would be working with members, MPs and Councillors, to show that "Jews are welcome in the Labour party."

 

From the same article you posted. The standing ovations aren't what received the headline though, the two heckle comments were.

 

I don't mean to dismiss this stuff but if this is what we're talking about, it feels a bit soft. The twitter comment notwithstanding btw, that was obviously bang out of order.

[Rayvin 4964]

Aye, and that tweet saw the councillor immediately suspended with a quote by Corbyn suggesting that all Labour party members who are anti-semitic are immediately excluded from the Party until an inquiry is commissioned.

 

Not sure what else he needs to do, really.

[Dr Gloom 19879]

Those three incidents:

 

- anti-israel leaflets distributed by a group which, whilst heavily affiliated with the Labour Party are not the actual party.

 

- deplorable comments in twitter by some dope that is immediately suspended from the party.

 

- "Mr Katz received two standing ovations when he said his organisation would be working with members, MPs and Councillors, to show that "Jews are welcome in the Labour party."

 

From the same article you posted. The standing ovations aren't what received the headline though, the two heckle comments were.

 

I don't mean to dismiss this stuff but if this is what we're talking about, it feels a bit soft. The twitter comment notwithstanding btw, that was obviously bang out of order.

 

those are just three incidents. you can find more on google if you can be arsed. this isn't a story that has come out of nowhere, is the point. there has been an issue for years among labour's hard left, pro-palestine movement. while a lot of the criticism israel receives is just, there is a lot of antisemitic sentiment in those circles. my mother experienced it herself - she's jewish and used to flog socialist worker back in the day. 

[Dr Gloom 19879]

and by the way, i fully agree that there needs to ba a line drawn between being antisemites and anti-zonists. clearly you can be one without being the other. 

 

i personally am pro-israel and it's right to exist but i'm also pro-palestine and support a of a two state solution. i'm against netanyahu, likud and all the other assorted religious nutjobs who reject the idea of two states and who want to build settlements in the west bank. and i'm anti-hamas and hezbollah. i certainly wouldn't describe them as friends, as corbyn has. 

 

[Gemmill 34856]

But those are three weak as piss incidents as well. The heckling of Katz was "you don't speak for all Jews" and "rubbish". I mean howay. [emoji38]

 

If your mother suffered personal abuse, that's terrible and I do genuinely accept that I am probably failing to check my non-opressed privilege, but I dunno, I still feel like I'm hearing more noise than substance.

[Gemmill 34856]

Not from you btw (the noise/substance) comment. I just mean in general.

[Rayvin 4964]

and by the way, i fully agree that there needs to ba a line drawn between being antisemites and anti-zonists. clearly you can be one without being the other. 

 

i personally am pro-israel and it's right to exist but i'm also pro-palestine and support a of a two state solution. i'm against netanyahu, likud and all the other assorted religious nutjobs who reject the idea of two states and who want to build settlements in the west bank. and i'm anti-hamas and hezbollah. i certainly wouldn't describe them as friends, as corbyn has. 

 

I'm not pro or anti Israel, I just want to look at things objectively. Israel is a murderous state that appears to have embraced Darwinism in its foreign policy approach with its neighbours.

 

I also don't believe in a two state solution. I don't think it'll ever work because neither party wants it to. I think the British and Americans carved up Palestine without any proper consideration of the political consequences, and I think that there was a politically forceful Zionist movement in the UK especially for this. I am aware that a number of shootings were carried out by Zionist terrorists in the early days of Jewish resettlement, and that they eventually became dominant over the Palestinians through force. At least based on the sources I have read. I can't remember the name of the book but I'll post it later if I remember.