Alex 30440 Posted July 27, 2018 Share Posted July 27, 2018 34 minutes ago, Kevin Carr's Gloves said: Contractors are getting screwed for tax at the moment too, pretty soon it will absolutely not worth the bother and a lot of the IT industry will be fucked. The IR35 changes were rolled out to the public sector first (in England and Wales at least), meaning those contractors in the public sector were paid more in order to stop them going into the private sector. So, yet another move to look like the government is increasing revenue which actually results in the opposite. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gemmill 34533 Posted July 27, 2018 Share Posted July 27, 2018 Decent thread if you click through. They really are the fucking worst. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kevin Carr's Gloves 3206 Posted July 29, 2018 Share Posted July 29, 2018 So the only people getting investigated over Labour’s anti semitism rules are jews and the children of jews. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rayvin 4964 Posted July 29, 2018 Share Posted July 29, 2018 6 minutes ago, Kevin Carr's Gloves said: So the only people getting investigated over Labour’s anti semitism rules are jews and the children of jews. Can you explain? I see Hodge is being investigated but that's presumably for being abusive rather than antisemitic? Just wondering if I'm missing something. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kevin Carr's Gloves 3206 Posted July 29, 2018 Share Posted July 29, 2018 1 minute ago, Rayvin said: Can you explain? I see Hodge is being investigated but that's presumably for being abusive rather than antisemitic? Just wondering if I'm missing something. I’m being obtuse Hodge and 1 other (who was adopted by jews) are being investigated because they complained about how shit the anti semitism rules are. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rayvin 4964 Posted July 29, 2018 Share Posted July 29, 2018 Just now, Kevin Carr's Gloves said: I’m being obtuse Hodge and 1 other (who was adopted by jews) are being investigated because they complained about how shit the anti semitism rules are. Ahhhh. My bad, sorry Tbh I was quite ready to believe you on a literal level Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ewerk 26413 Posted July 29, 2018 Share Posted July 29, 2018 They’ve literally missed an open goal with this. All they had to do was implement the standards of antisemitism as recognised by nearly everyone else but couldn’t do it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NJS 3981 Posted July 29, 2018 Share Posted July 29, 2018 2 minutes ago, ewerk said: They’ve literally missed an open goal with this. All they had to do was implement the standards of antisemitism as recognised by nearly everyone else but couldn’t do it. The standards that stop any debate on Israel? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kevin Carr's Gloves 3206 Posted July 29, 2018 Share Posted July 29, 2018 4 minutes ago, NJS said: The standards that stop any debate on Israel? They don’t they just state that you can’t compare Israel and Nazi Germany. There are many other fascist states you are allowed to compare them to which would have shut down all this shit completely. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rayvin 4964 Posted July 29, 2018 Share Posted July 29, 2018 23 minutes ago, Kevin Carr's Gloves said: They don’t they just state that you can’t compare Israel and Nazi Germany. There are many other fascist states you are allowed to compare them to which would have shut down all this shit completely. Is that the only difference between the two agendas? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ewerk 26413 Posted July 29, 2018 Share Posted July 29, 2018 33 minutes ago, NJS said: The standards that stop any debate on Israel? You want to explain how they do that? I’m no fan of Israel and especially their recent actions but I don’t think these standards do that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NJS 3981 Posted July 29, 2018 Share Posted July 29, 2018 One of the guidelines is that it's antisemitic to call Israel a racist state. They just passed a law that states that Israel is a Jewish state for Jews which would have the south African apartheid regime nodding approvingly. If you point this out you break those guidelines. As I've said before some people's support and sympathy for Palestinians has gone too far but this is an attempt to ensure that the slightest criticism of Israel is a disciplinary matter in order to get at Corbyn. All the other governments and organisations that agree to those guidelines are ones that wouldn't dream of saying anything against Israel so its a no brainer for them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kevin Carr's Gloves 3206 Posted July 29, 2018 Share Posted July 29, 2018 24 minutes ago, Rayvin said: Is that the only difference between the two agendas? That and you aren’t allowed to call the creation of the state of Israel a racist action. You can say a shitload of other stuff but that’s not enough for the Labour Party. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kevin Carr's Gloves 3206 Posted July 29, 2018 Share Posted July 29, 2018 2 minutes ago, NJS said: One of the guidelines is that it's antisemitic to call Israel a racist state. They just passed a law that states that Israel is a Jewish state for Jews which would have the south African apartheid regime nodding approvingly. If you point this out you break those guidelines. As I've said before some people's support and sympathy for Palestinians has gone too far but this is an attempt to ensure that the slightest criticism of Israel is a disciplinary matter in order to get at Corbyn. All the other governments and organisations that agree to those guidelines are ones that wouldn't dream of saying anything against Israel so its a no brainer for them. You aren’t allowed to call it a racist endeavour, there is a difference. You can also say with impunity that any of the laws they enacted are racist. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ewerk 26413 Posted July 29, 2018 Share Posted July 29, 2018 5 minutes ago, NJS said: One of the guidelines is that it's antisemitic to call Israel a racist state. They just passed a law that states that Israel is a Jewish state for Jews which would have the south African apartheid regime nodding approvingly. If you point this out you break those guidelines. As I've said before some people's support and sympathy for Palestinians has gone too far but this is an attempt to ensure that the slightest criticism of Israel is a disciplinary matter in order to get at Corbyn. All the other governments and organisations that agree to those guidelines are ones that wouldn't dream of saying anything against Israel so its a no brainer for them. That is incorrect. The guidelines say that it is wrong to say that their existence as a state is a racist endeavour. It is possible to claim that their latest actions are racist and still stay within that boundary. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NJS 3981 Posted July 29, 2018 Share Posted July 29, 2018 I caught a brief bit of an interview with one of the editors of the Jewish newspapers who stated that criticism of the new law was antisemitic as far as he was concerned. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kevin Carr's Gloves 3206 Posted July 29, 2018 Share Posted July 29, 2018 16 minutes ago, NJS said: I caught a brief bit of an interview with one of the editors of the Jewish newspapers who stated that criticism of the new law was antisemitic as far as he was concerned. Well he’d be wrong then. Where was it on? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ewerk 26413 Posted July 29, 2018 Share Posted July 29, 2018 You should know better than to listen to one voice when it comes to anything to do with Israel. The guidelines are so filled with so many loopholes you could fit CT’s waistline through them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dr Gloom 19828 Posted July 29, 2018 Share Posted July 29, 2018 Ffs Labour. They should have May’s head on a spike but this story just won’t die. Absolutely clueless, gutless leadership from Corbyn. Look how swiftly Hodge and Austin were dealt with compared to livingstone. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rayvin 4964 Posted July 29, 2018 Share Posted July 29, 2018 Can someone explain why free speech needs to be curtailed on this one point. Why cant we call the creation of Israel a racist endeavour? Also, why would we want to call it that? The notion presumably is that to do so denies the right of Jewish people to have a homeland? In fairness though, they never should have been given what they have in the way they were. Does it make me antisemitic to state this or...? I dont get the significance of this point really. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ewerk 26413 Posted July 30, 2018 Share Posted July 30, 2018 7 hours ago, Rayvin said: Can someone explain why free speech needs to be curtailed on this one point. Why cant we call the creation of Israel a racist endeavour? Also, why would we want to call it that? The notion presumably is that to do so denies the right of Jewish people to have a homeland? In fairness though, they never should have been given what they have in the way they were. Does it make me antisemitic to state this or...? I dont get the significance of this point really. I don't see why any Labour member would need to say it? You can attack Israel for their current actions and can say they have a racist government, that's all fine. It's one of those areas where a bit of pragmatism would be much more sensible rather than dragging their heels on an issue which has dogged them for years. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dr Gloom 19828 Posted July 30, 2018 Share Posted July 30, 2018 (edited) 9 hours ago, Rayvin said: Can someone explain why free speech needs to be curtailed on this one point. Why cant we call the creation of Israel a racist endeavour? Also, why would we want to call it that? The notion presumably is that to do so denies the right of Jewish people to have a homeland? In fairness though, they never should have been given what they have in the way they were. Does it make me antisemitic to state this or...? I dont get the significance of this point really. Let me address this. Why couldn’t labour just accept the IHRA definition? Critics will say it’s so they can evade expelling antisemites in the party. As for the creation of Israel as a national homeland for the jews, why is it a racist endeavour and under what circumstances would it be acceptable to say it is? That Israel is a disgustingly racist country now is without a doubt but it has a right to exist just like all the other countries that were created (after liberation from their colonial masters). Look at the Indian sub continent and the enmity between India and Pakistan - created/given statehood and now at each other’s throats. Almost every country in Africa subdivided by men with maps and pens, sitting around large tables in the early twentieth century. The people who had to live in different cultural groups - the Sunnis and the Shia, the Muslims v the Hindus etc etc. They had to accept the state they were given. Why have Iran and Iraq hated each other and been at war for years? These were all countries that were “created”. Why are they not racist endeavours? The only country whose inception is deemed a racist endeavour by the left is Israel because Jews are not recognised as a nation but as a religion and therefore are undeserving of a place to call home. This is fundamentally wrong and it’s what makes the issue of Israel antisemitic - not criticism of what the state is doing now. Ian Austin’s grandparents were literally murdered in the Holocaust and now he’s being “investigated” by the Labour Party for criticising it on antisemitism. While Livingstone was allowed to remain for way too long before he was eventually ousted for being a total embarrassment. Why couldn’t labour just consult the Jewish community and accept its definition? Its code was designed to address the antisemitism question within the party, wasn’t it? Why is it that the Jews are the ones who are being investigated? Why not just accept the international standards, end this PR disaster and move on? This post is getting into tldr fish territory. But read the latest by Jonathan Friedland. It’s illuminating https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2018/jul/27/jewish-anger-labour-listen-antisemitism-opinion Edited July 30, 2018 by Dr Gloom 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dr Gloom 19828 Posted July 30, 2018 Share Posted July 30, 2018 53 minutes ago, ewerk said: I don't see why any Labour member would need to say it? You can attack Israel for their current actions and can say they have a racist government, that's all fine. It's one of those areas where a bit of pragmatism would be much more sensible rather than dragging their heels on an issue which has dogged them for years. This is Jeremy, “will you condone the IRA?”, “I condone all forms of terrorism” Corbyn. He doesn’t have a pragmatic bone in his body. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ewerk 26413 Posted July 30, 2018 Share Posted July 30, 2018 18 minutes ago, Dr Gloom said: This is Jeremy, “will you condone the IRA?”, “I condone all forms of terrorism” Corbyn. He doesn’t have a pragmatic bone in his body. I'm pretty sure that would have made headlines had he said that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dr Gloom 19828 Posted July 30, 2018 Share Posted July 30, 2018 It was how he addressed that question during the televised debates at the last election Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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