Politics

[NJS 3981]

6 minutes ago, Renton said:

 

I'd rather have a tory government led by a moderate wet like Clarke or Major than a Labour one under Corbyn. There, I said it. Not May or any of her likely replacements though. I cannot see Corbyn being anything other than a complete disaster, not that he will ever be in power. 

 

I support the 7, Hatton can fuck off and die. 

You support no policies, just a vague hankering back to NL - fair enough. 

 

Those manifesto policies poll extremely well on their own terms so describing them as extreme shows how far right the goal posts have been moved. 

[Christmas Tree 3997]

5 minutes ago, Meenzer said:

I like to think that power and the reality of actually having to do things would force the Corbyn wing to compromise in ways that they don't have to when they're in opposition.

 

 I like to think that one day I will fit back into my 34” waist jeans.

[Christmas Tree 3997]

5 minutes ago, NJS said:

You support no policies, just a vague hankering back to NL - fair enough. 

 

Those manifesto policies poll extremely well on their own terms so describing them as extreme shows how far right the goal posts have been moved. 

 

Promising cake and eat it policies always poll well

[Meenzer 14055]

10 minutes ago, Christmas Tree said:

 

 I like to think that one day I will fit back into my 34” waist jeans.

 

Aye, you know what I mean though. The shit hitting the fan tends to prompt people into action. With the honourable exception of our current PM...

[Renton 17799]

7 minutes ago, NJS said:

You support no policies, just a vague hankering back to NL - fair enough. 

 

Those manifesto policies poll extremely well on their own terms so describing them as extreme shows how far right the goal posts have been moved. 

 

It's all about Europe NJS. Maybe I could live with his socialist aspirational policies if he could deliver them, although I'm not convinced. But how can he afford them if our economy takes a 10% hit, as predicted? But then there is his fundamental lack of intellect and honesty to deal with which are bad even by todays standards. 

 

He's probably a symptom more than a cause tbh. We need to fundamentally rethink politics and it looks like it's going to take a crisis to do this. 

[Kevin Carr's Gloves 3205]

I have no problems with any of Corbyn's policies. I just happen to think he is thick, opinionated and stubborn. The last two wouldn't be too bad if it wasn't for the first one.

[Rayvin 4964]

3 hours ago, Renton said:

Derek Hatton has rejoined and Galloway expected to. Well done you Corbynistas, youve given the keys of the party to the lunatics and utterly destroyed any notion of an opposition this country had. Dont say you weren't warned. Idiots. 

 

Can't quite bring myself to say I regret voting for Corbyn since the alternatives were so dismal, but you have to accept something that you really haven't ever managed to - the centre, in entirely, was fucking shit. Completely, unbelievably, fucking shit. I've never lived through a period, while I retained any political awareness at least, where the centre wasn't in control - so choosing Corbyn made total sense to me; and honestly, Brexit aside, still would. The only reason he's lost me is Brexit. If not for that, I could handle the generally rubbish way he conducts himself because he seems able to turn it on in the run ups to GEs.

 

So let's not pretend it was all sunshine and roses and that the centre had no hand in getting us here. It had the biggest fucking hand. A lot of what has followed the referendum is on Corbyn for absolute certain, but he had fuck all to do with why it happened unless you believe that 66% of Labour voters going Remain was too low, and that the party should instead of had higher numbers than both the LDs (68%) and the Greens (70%), both middle class as fuck.

 

Don't say you weren't warned about the fucking centre either.

[Kid Dynamite 5925]

55 minutes ago, Renton said:

 

I'd rather have a tory government led by a moderate wet like Clarke or Major than a Labour one under Corbyn. There, I said it. Not May or any of her likely replacements though. I cannot see Corbyn being anything other than a complete disaster, not that he will ever be in power. 

 

I support the 7, Hatton can fuck off and die. 

 

Not like you to get emotional about Corbyn.... but voting Tory ffs

[Rayvin 4964]

33 minutes ago, Renton said:

 

It's all about Europe NJS. Maybe I could live with his socialist aspirational policies if he could deliver them, although I'm not convinced. But how can he afford them if our economy takes a 10% hit, as predicted? But then there is his fundamental lack of intellect and honesty to deal with which are bad even by todays standards. 

 

He's probably a symptom more than a cause tbh. We need to fundamentally rethink politics and it looks like it's going to take a crisis to do this. 

 

We are where we are because no one was listening. The Tories rolled out ideological austerity and Labour waved it through. The two parties of the centre, creating the rise of Corbyn, the 'far right' (who always capitalise on economic disenfranchisement, to the point where I recall the BNP actually saying that this was their strategy in general, rather than winning people over in elections), and Brexit. They pushed the lefties to the left, and the loonies to the right. This much has been totally inevitable for a political structure that really just did not give a fuck and thought that all it had to do was turn up to win.

 

As for where we go from here, it has to be PR IMO. The country is polarised as fuck but I still believe that there is an overall majority left wing consensus. Until we lose Scotland anyway.

[Christmas Tree 3997]

Centre is the only place politics should ever be. It’s there to save us from the extremes of far right or hard left. Long live the centre.

[Rayvin 4964]

Just now, Christmas Tree said:

Centre is the only place politics should ever be. It’s there to save us from the extremes of far right or hard left. Long live the centre.

 

This is a difficult one for me because I agree that a centre that actually gives a fuck is exactly where politics should be. I just don't think that's where we were.

 

Also, I'd have more time for your views on this if you ever admitted you were wrong about the many, many things you have been wrong about.

[Meenzer 14055]

15 minutes ago, Rayvin said:

As for where we go from here, it has to be PR IMO. The country is polarised as fuck but I still believe that there is an overall majority left wing consensus. Until we lose Scotland anyway.

 

I think you're right if that view of "left wing" is allowed to encompass the left-leaning centre. Especially if every vote actually counts so people can actually give a more nuanced view of what they want without feeling they have to pick a certain team or else their vote is wasted.

 

This is where I'm still fine that Corbyn happened, in an Overton window kind of way. Temper his ideas a bit in a coalition that's still broadly left-leaning and you've achieved something palatable and useful. It's just unfortunate that the figurehead of that movement happens to be desperately ill-suited to the unprecedented big-picture challenges facing the country right now.

 

All of which is moot since we'll never get PR anyway.

[ewerk 26394]

21 minutes ago, Rayvin said:

 the centre, in entirely, was fucking shit. Completely, unbelievably, fucking shit.

[Renton 17799]

11 minutes ago, Rayvin said:

 

We are where we are because no one was listening. The Tories rolled out ideological austerity and Labour waved it through. The two parties of the centre, creating the rise of Corbyn, the 'far right' (who always capitalise on economic disenfranchisement, to the point where I recall the BNP actually saying that this was their strategy in general, rather than winning people over in elections), and Brexit. They pushed the lefties to the left, and the loonies to the right. This much has been totally inevitable for a political structure that really just did not give a fuck and thought that all it had to do was turn up to win.

 

As for where we go from here, it has to be PR IMO. The country is polarised as fuck but I still believe that there is an overall majority left wing consensus. Until we lose Scotland anyway.

 

You have to stop blaming Labour for austerity. They couldn't stop it, they weren't in power. Yes I agree they were cowardly and ineffective in opposition, but still, the tories own this. For me personally what I find really disgraceful is Momentum and the like white washing New Labour's considerable achievements from history, as if they were something to be ashamed of. I bet some of the younger ones are stupid enough to believe it too. 

 

We can both agree we need a new system like PR. I've always wanted this. But obviously there is no mechanism to allow for it other than ripping it down and starting again. For my kids sake, I don't want this either because it will be brutal. 

[Rayvin 4964]

1 minute ago, Meenzer said:

 

I think you're right if that view of "left wing" is allowed to encompass the left-leaning centre. Especially if every vote actually counts so people can actually give a more nuanced view of what they want without feeling they have to pick a certain team or else their vote is wasted.

 

This is where I'm still fine that Corbyn happened, in an Overton window kind of way. Temper his ideas a bit in a coalition that's still broadly left-leaning and you've achieved something palatable and useful. It's just unfortunate that the figurehead of that movement happens to be useless for the big-picture challenges facing the country right now.

 

All of which is moot since we'll never get PR.

 

I am sure if we go back through my posts, this is actually my exact reason for choosing Corbyn at the time. So yes, fully agree on that. And yes, fully intended to include left leaning centre. Ultimately I had no issue with the way Labour came together under the Blairites to tackle this, and I recall that I used to be continuously annoyed with the LDs because in my view their supporters were generally also left wing, so there was a split in the left for no good reason. I don't actually believe this is true anymore, I think I had a fairly incomplete view of the political makeup of LD voters, but still.

 

This was why I was so outraged they joined the Tories though. It was like they picked up 2 million left wing votes and delivered a right wing government with them.

 

Anyway, yes - we indeed never will get PR. The fact that none of the politicians actually talk about it is damning, really.

[ewerk 26394]

5 minutes ago, Rayvin said:

 

I am sure if we go back through my posts, this is actually my exact reason for choosing Corbyn at the time. So yes, fully agree on that. And yes, fully intended to include left leaning centre. Ultimately I had no issue with the way Labour came together under the Blairites to tackle this, and I recall that I used to be continuously annoyed with the LDs because in my view their supporters were generally also left wing, so there was a split in the left for no good reason. I don't actually believe this is true anymore, I think I had a fairly incomplete view of the political makeup of LD voters, but still.

 

This was why I was so outraged they joined the Tories though. It was like they picked up 2 million left wing votes and delivered a right wing government with them.

 

Anyway, yes - we indeed never will get PR. The fact that none of the politicians actually talk about it is damning, really.

So you can appreciate how Corbyn has pulled Labour to the left but can't see how the Lib Dems prevented the Tories from going fully to the right?

[Rayvin 4964]

2 minutes ago, Renton said:

 

You have to stop blaming Labour for austerity. They couldn't stop it, they weren't in power. Yes I agree they were cowardly and ineffective in opposition, but still, the tories own this. For me personally what I find really disgraceful is Momentum and the like white washing New Labour's considerable achievements from history, as if they were something to be ashamed of. I bet some of the younger ones are stupid enough to believe it too. 

 

We can both agree we need a new system like PR. I've always wanted this. But obviously there is no mechanism to allow for it other than ripping it down and starting again. For my kids sake, I don't want this either because it will be brutal. 

 

I'm not blaming them for austerity, I'm blaming them for failing to actually oppose it. As much as Corbyn has totally failed to oppose Brexit, letting the Tories control the narrative and do whatever they like actually appears to be a time honoured Labour position.

 

Momentum are angry because they believe that the centrists in Labour are trying to pull the whole thing down - mostly because that's exactly what they did try to do for the first two years. So let's also not forget that bit. The Blairites have been pretty quiet since the GE but before that there was absolute hell on in Labour. I don't recall anywhere near as much ill feeling prior to the multiple attempts to oust Corbyn, so if they're being accused of treachery it's because yeah, there was a fair amount of fucking treachery.

 

They're supposed to be politicians man. They're supposed to understand this shit. Anyone could see that the second leadership contest was going to give them the biggest kick in the bollocks they'd ever experienced from their own party, and they went ahead with it anyway. That's not 'principles', it's political stupidity. If they had backed the whole thing then Corbyn could well have run out of steam by now, people could have seen through him and it could be over - but instead they made it clear that they were not happy and effectively made themselves the enemy. Maybe the super hardcore lefties in Momentum were pushing that too but honestly, I wasn't exposed to anything they were saying - I was exposed to plenty of open attempts to bring Corbyn down in the national media though, from the Blairites themselves. So my ill feeling towards them at the time came very much from their own doing.

[Rayvin 4964]

1 minute ago, ewerk said:

So you can appreciate how Corbyn has pulled Labour to the left but can't see how the Lib Dems prevented the Tories from going fully to the right?

 

I don't think I said that... wait, lemme just... no, didn't actually say that anywhere. Huh. Weird.

 

I mean for one thing I was talking in the past tense about a view held 5 or 6 years ago, ewerk...

[Christmas Tree 3997]

SOON, and all shall be well.

 

 

[Renton 17799]

5 minutes ago, Rayvin said:

 

I'm not blaming them for austerity, I'm blaming them for failing to actually oppose it. As much as Corbyn has totally failed to oppose Brexit, letting the Tories control the narrative and do whatever they like actually appears to be a time honoured Labour position.

 

Momentum are angry because they believe that the centrists in Labour are trying to pull the whole thing down - mostly because that's exactly what they did try to do for the first two years. So let's also not forget that bit. The Blairites have been pretty quiet since the GE but before that there was absolute hell on in Labour. I don't recall anywhere near as much ill feeling prior to the multiple attempts to oust Corbyn, so if they're being accused of treachery it's because yeah, there was a fair amount of fucking treachery.

 

They're supposed to be politicians man. They're supposed to understand this shit. Anyone could see that the second leadership contest was going to give them the biggest kick in the bollocks they'd ever experienced from their own party, and they went ahead with it anyway. That's not 'principles', it's political stupidity. If they had backed the whole thing then Corbyn could well have run out of steam by now, people could have seen through him and it could be over - but instead they made it clear that they were not happy and effectively made themselves the enemy. Maybe the super hardcore lefties in Momentum were pushing that too but honestly, I wasn't exposed to anything they were saying - I was exposed to plenty of open attempts to bring Corbyn down in the national media though, from the Blairites themselves. So my ill feeling towards them at the time came very much from their own doing.

 

Tbh Miliband fucked the whole thing up with his 3 quid votes to the KDs of this world. Ultimately a party where the PLP was entirely opposed to the leadership was never going to work. Everybody had a role in that, first and foremost Corbyn himself. Whatever, pointless getting into recriminations at this point I guess, the gig is truly fucked now. 

[Rayvin 4964]

4 minutes ago, Renton said:

 

Tbh Miliband fucked the whole thing up with his 3 quid votes to the KDs of this world. Ultimately a party where the PLP was entirely opposed to the leadership was never going to work. Everybody had a role in that, first and foremost Corbyn himself. Whatever, pointless getting into recriminations at this point I guess, the gig is truly fucked now. 

 

Yeah it's pointless but I really do feel that on some level, to fix any of this, everyone has to look at 'their side' and accept the areas in which 'their side' were actually responsible for this. And I do see, or feel like I see, at least, the areas in which Corbyn has failed us and been a disaster. I'm totally with you on that because I want Brexit to go away as much as you do.

 

But it's not the whole picture at all. This has been an unmitigated fuck up from the entire political class, and while Cameron's stupidity was something that I guess the centrists in Labour couldn't predict, the fact that they were so poorly positioned to deal with it at the time is on them.

 

The £3 membership would have been a good idea tbh, if they had just had someone between Corbyn and everyone else (politically), and no Corbyn option present.

Edited February 19, 2019 by Rayvin

[Dr Gloom 19826]

3 hours ago, NJS said:

I think Berger has been a true victim and I fell sorry for her but I'd make the point that random cunts on twitter aren't necessarily party members or officials. 

 

Some NUFC fans post horrific racist and other bigoted shite but I think holding the club to account is expecting a bit much - though I would expect complaints against ST holders to be followed up. 

 

 

It’s not just on twitter though, is it? We have already covered several examples of it extensively in this thread. The rise of antisemitism in Labour ranks has increased under Corbyn’s watch and he hasn’t done enough to address it. The IHRA row is just one example of his failure. 

This is coming from someone who wanted Corbyn to succeed. I thought his manifesto was brilliant and I’m disappointed that the gang of seven decided this was the right moment to split. But I also get why they’ve done it.

[Dr Gloom 19826]

1 hour ago, Kevin Carr's Gloves said:

I have no problems with any of Corbyn's policies. I just happen to think he is thick, opinionated and stubborn. The last two wouldn't be too bad if it wasn't for the first one.

Yup. Some good policies but a terrible politician, who is on course to facilitate Brexit while the Labour Party diminished on his watch. 

[NJS 3981]

14 minutes ago, Dr Gloom said:

It’s not just on twitter though, is it? We have already covered several examples of it extensively in this thread. The rise of antisemitism in Labour ranks has increased under Corbyn’s watch and he hasn’t done enough to address it. The IHRA row is just one example of his failure. 

This is coming from someone who wanted Corbyn to succeed. I thought his manifesto was brilliant and I’m disappointed that the gang of seven decided this was the right moment to split. But I also get why they’ve done it.

I know it's not good optics as they say and it goes back to lack of pragmatism but I still think there are some issues with the IHRA thing which were worth a debate - though I understand why debates are tricky in this area. 

[Rayvin 4964]

5 minutes ago, NJS said:

I know it's not good optics as they say and it goes back to lack of pragmatism but I still think there are some issues with the IHRA thing which were worth a debate - though I understand why debates are tricky in this area. 

 

I thought this too initially, but the longer this total distraction has gone on, the more I personally would be prepared to just do whatever it took to make it go away.