Syriza test case.

[Rob W 0]

No reform = EXIT I think - the germans know that if they give in to eh Greeks they'll finish up supporting Italy & Spain next

[Park Life 70]

No reform = EXIT I think - the germans know that if they give in to eh Greeks they'll finish up supporting Italy & Spain next

Varafoukis wants to cut a deal with the IMF rather than the troika.

[NJS 3992]

Varafoukis wants to cut a deal with the IMF rather than the troika.

The money they owe the EU is long term whereas the pressure is on for the IMF money they've already had which is due to be repaid by 2020 I think. Not sure of the rates but maybe the EU are Wonga and the IMF are like a high St bank so it's better to get more from the IMF.

[Park Life 70]

The money they owe the EU is long term whereas the pressure is on for the IMF money they've already had which is due to be repaid by 2020 I think. Not sure of the rates but maybe the EU are Wonga and the IMF are like a high St bank so it's better to get more from the IMF.

He did a speech a couple of years back where he called the IMF bastards...

[Park Life 70]

From the Gurardian comments page...A bit of interesting detail not many are aware of:

 

"Commentators need to put away the charts and get out the map.
Greece's neighbors reads like a list of the worlds current and recent trouble spots. From the top clockwise, Macedonia, Bulgaria, Turkey, Syria, Lebanon, Israel/Gaza, Egypt, Libya, Tunisia, the gangster infested heel of Italy, Albania.

 

Greece isn't the periphery of the EU, it's the frontier.

So while Germany cannot have an army, for the sake of Europe and NATO, Greece purchased 150B+ of military weaponry during its time in the eurozone. It was the 3rd largest arms buyer in the world, a country of 11 million people. Often deals passed through Greek elites who took a billion (yes, in bribes. This was a vendor financing scam, the goods and the financing providing by corporate/banking entwinement. If you subtract 3/4s or 115B of the military weaponry purchasers from the 280B in debt Greece began with in 2009, you have a country that is doing quite fine with gov't finances. 40% tax revenue to GDP (below euro average), 28% tax evasion (evasion of very high taxes, as opposed to legal evasion elsewhere), a smaller gov't expenditure per capita than the majority of Europe (and tho gov't is inept and full of patronage hires, expenditure was still small on the social).

 

Conclusion: the only reform Greece needs is to stop accepting bribes from German companies, bankrolled by German banks. Everyone talks about the labor market and how sclerotic it is, but no one wants to talk about workers with work without pay for weeks or months, workers doing full and overtime hours at part-time, 27% unemployment and 56% for the young creates a desperate labor pool willing to work for scraps, and the regulations are unenforced because of a barebone and inept bureaucracy. Talk to Greek business owners, and ask them about labor. I have. if they tell you they don't control labor conditions, they are absolutely lying through their teeth."

[Alex 30734]

If you go to places in Greece that are close to Turkey, like Rhodes for example, it's absolutely crawling with the military of various descriptions.

[Rayvin 4964]

Greece has a long running feud with Turkey of course, but I can't think of any other reasons why they would need military expenditure on that scale. That said, Turkey is well armed and Greece had decades of enslavement, or so I'm (perhaps not reliably) told by Greek people, at the hands of the Turkish, maybe that's contributive.

 

Not saying that there isn't something screwy going on with Germany, but are the Greeks ever militaristically involved in the sorts of things that the rest of Europe gets embroiled in?

Edited February 16, 2015 by Rayvin

[Anorthernsoul 1221]

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/finance/economics/11414969/Greek-debt-standoff-Live.html

[Park Life 70]

Germans are off their fuking heads here with this. Bunch of clueless and ensconed autocrats protecting their lifetime revolving door jobs. Varoufakes is being polite but he will kick the shit out of them if he has to...He doesn't give a fcuk.

 

Greece is eternal.

Edited February 16, 2015 by Park Life

[ewerk 26750]

Until the EU and the rest of the world fucks them off.

 

They're not going to turn into a third world country overnight but things aren't going to get any better for them by fucking off the troika.

[Park Life 70]

Edited February 17, 2015 by Park Life

[Gemmill 35322]

http://mobile.nytimes.com/2015/02/17/opinion/yanis-varoufakis-no-time-for-games-in-europe.html?_r=0&referrer=

 

Extracted passages... What a bloke:

 

As finance minister of a small, fiscally stressed nation lacking its own central bank and seen by many of our partners as a problem debtor, I am convinced that we have one option only: to shun any temptation to treat this pivotal moment as an experiment in strategizing and, instead, to present honestly the facts concerning Greece’s social economy, table our proposals for regrowing Greece, explain why these are in Europe’s interest, and reveal the red lines beyond which logic and duty prevent us from going.

 

I am often asked: What if the only way you can secure funding is to cross your red lines and accept measures that you consider to be part of the problem, rather than of its solution? Faithful to the principle that I have no right to bluff, my answer is: The lines that we have presented as red will not be crossed. Otherwise, they would not be truly red, but merely a bluff.

 

How do we know that our modest policy agenda, which constitutes our red line, is right in Kant’s terms? We know by looking into the eyes of the hungry in the streets of our cities or contemplating our stressed middle class, or considering the interests of hard-working people in every European village and city within our monetary union. After all, Europe will only regain its soul when it regains the people’s trust by putting their interests center-stage.

[Park Life 70]

http://mobile.nytimes.com/2015/02/17/opinion/yanis-varoufakis-no-time-for-games-in-europe.html?_r=0&referrer=

 

Extracted passages... What a bloke:

 

As finance minister of a small, fiscally stressed nation lacking its own central bank and seen by many of our partners as a problem debtor, I am convinced that we have one option only: to shun any temptation to treat this pivotal moment as an experiment in strategizing and, instead, to present honestly the facts concerning Greece’s social economy, table our proposals for regrowing Greece, explain why these are in Europe’s interest, and reveal the red lines beyond which logic and duty prevent us from going.

 

I am often asked: What if the only way you can secure funding is to cross your red lines and accept measures that you consider to be part of the problem, rather than of its solution? Faithful to the principle that I have no right to bluff, my answer is: The lines that we have presented as red will not be crossed. Otherwise, they would not be truly red, but merely a bluff.

 

How do we know that our modest policy agenda, which constitutes our red line, is right in Kant’s terms? We know by looking into the eyes of the hungry in the streets of our cities or contemplating our stressed middle class, or considering the interests of hard-working people in every European village and city within our monetary union. After all, Europe will only regain its soul when it regains the people’s trust by putting their interests center-stage.

This really is the stuff of films. Some geezer nobody has heard of comes in on a massive motorbike and takes on the scum of European political class.

 

 

[Gemmill 35322]

He looks fucking rock as well.

[Gemmill 35322]

http://www.bloomberg.com/news/videos/2015-02-17/varoufakis-says-greece-not-bluffing-no-plan-b

[Park Life 70]

http://www.bloomberg.com/news/videos/2015-02-17/varoufakis-says-greece-not-bluffing-no-plan-b

If you're just going to lend money in old school ways to faltering countries and expect it back when everybody knew from the get go (and ignored) this ponzi at some point would break down then there is a price to pay. The EU has to drop this pretence that it is a commuity if the acid test reveals it only to be vehicle doing the age old work of entrenched banking and financial interests to the destruciton of the needs of the common people who make up such a community...The first response always is to administer austerity poverty on the masses and asset capture against the long term interests of the citizens to the point that states cease to function as entities against the tides and wishes of the corporate and fianacial institutions.

 

The Greek Govt has a mandate to fight the current EU model that only really benefits Northern Europe and the wider capital markets of the West. The dry fiscal approach that Germany wants to stick to will continue to destabalise the workings of Southern Europe unable now to compete without access to soverign mechanisms under EU law. Germany needs to wake upto the fact that although the euro gave it a massive advantage all that will be for nothing if half of Eueope leaves the monetary mechanism and the Northern banks are left holding the bill.

 

A key moment has transpired in that a democratically elected Govt with a mandate within the EU is fighting for itself against essentially an unelected and undemocractic Soviet which is basically what the EU is.

 

If European Banks (now holding about 3 trillion euros of private capital) are not going to step into the breech and add liquidity by lending and investing they have to be taken over. Simple as that. People starving on the streets of Europe and startling growth of a Europe wide underclass without jobs and hope is unnaceptable.

Edited February 17, 2015 by Park Life

[ewerk 26750]

The majority of Greece's debt isn't private so it's not all about guaranteeing corporate greed. Voldemort needs to back down, he obviously can't completely roll over but he has to be flexible. Canceling the privatisation program and cutting taxes might sound great at home but it's not the hard medicine that the country needs. In return the other side does have to look at granting the loans at a profit neutral level and looking at how it can help the Greek economy because, debt aside, they're still fucked.

[Park Life 70]

Heaven forbid Capitalism has to pay for itself! Of course the people are paying via taxes to prop up this nonsense. If they think that they are just going to roll back the hard won social charters and conventions of our countries they are more than deluded it's a kind of psychosis. And it won't matter how militarised the police is.

Edited February 17, 2015 by Park Life

[Park Life 70]

Germans reject Greek proposal...

 

http://www.theguardian.com/business/2015/feb/19/greece-requests-eurozone-loan-extension

[ewerk 26750]

So Voldemort has been slapped down?

[Park Life 70]

It's tricky times in Germany so they took a firm stance. Of course the EU is awash with money and this is partly a warning signal to others especially Spain. Syriza needs time to work out what it wants to do and also talk to others outside the EU. Don't think this is a significant barometer of things to come. Syriza won't cut pensions and won't raise VAT and are going after unpaid tax.

This money they owe is really peanuts in the scheme of things.

[Rob W 0]

From th Beeb

 

The Greek government has produced a list of reforms to try to satisfy the demands of creditors in Europe while maintaining its pre-election pledges. Here are some of the main points from the list - contained in a letter from the Greek government to its European partners obtained by Reuters - detailing the steps Greece plans to take. Fiscal structural policies Tax policies

• Broaden the definition of tax fraud and evasion, making it harder to avoid taxes

• Improve the collection of VAT, fighting evasion using technology

• Create "a new culture of tax compliance" to make sure that all sections of society - particularly the wealthy - "contribute fairly to the financing of public policies"

• Work with European and international partners to establish a database that helps tax authorities assess the veracity of previous income tax returns

Public Spending

• Work towards improving the efficiency of central and local government departments

• Identify cost-saving measures through a thorough spending review of every ministry, reorganising non-salary and non-pension expenditures which account for "an astounding 56% of total public expenditure"

• Use cross-checking to validate benefits to "help identify non-eligible beneficiaries"

• Control health expenditure and improve medical services, while granting universal access to healthcare

Social Security

• Take measures to continue modernising the pension system, reducing the social and political pressure for early retirement

Public Administration and Corruption

• Make the fight against corruption a national priority

• Target the smuggling of fuel and tobacco products, and tackle money laundering

• Activate legislation to ensure that media outlets pay market prices for the broadcast frequencies they use

Financial Stability Instalment schemes

• Improve enforcement methods for collecting unpaid taxes

• De-criminalise lower income debtors with small liabilities

Banking and non-performing loans

• Collaborate with banks to avoid auctions of the main residence of households that are below a certain income threshold, while "punishing strategic defaulters"

• Take measures to support the most vulnerable households, and modernise bankruptcy laws

Policies to promote growth Privatisation and public asset management

• Commit not to roll back privatisations that have been completed, and to respect tender processes that have already been launched

• Review privatisations that have not yet been launched with a view to maximising the state's long-term benefits

Labour market reforms

• Phase in "a new 'smart' approach to collective wage bargaining that balances the need for flexibility with fairness"

• Over time, to raise the minimum wage in a manner that safeguards competitiveness and employment prospects

Humanitarian crisis

• Address needs arising from the recent rise in absolute poverty though measures such as food stamps

• Evaluate a pilot minimum income scheme, with a view to extending it nationwide

• Ensure that the fight against the humanitarian crisis does not have a negative effect on the finances

[Meenzer 14135]

tl;dr version: http://www.thedailymash.co.uk/news/international/greece-to-set-up-some-sort-of-tax-system-2015022495671

[Park Life 70]

tl;dr version: http://www.thedailymash.co.uk/news/international/greece-to-set-up-some-sort-of-tax-system-2015022495671

 

They couild start by selling the Germans back that navy they're never going to use.

[ChezGiven 0]

Am taking my time with that Varoufakis speech Parky, it's very dense and full of excellent common sense, a very profound reading of Marx, Keynes, Marshall, Robinson and the Cambridge school. However a lot of radical stuff in there too. I got an hour in and want to start again when I have time. Am sunning myself in Tenerife so not really the best time to get into it.

 

In short, the man is exceptionally impressive. A Marxist game-theorist disguised as a neoclassical econometrician. If he can't shake up the EU order, no one can.