2017 GE 1

[Rayvin 4964]

You think so huh?

 

You reckon Scotland will break away? I'm hoping it does. We have a one party state anyway, may as well seal the deal and just call this a 'democracy' in the same sense that China calls itself one.

 

It's the end of history in the UK and wouldn't you know it, the super wealthy were right all along.

[Rayvin 4964]

Actually just to query a point, are you saying that a clear and professional vision is currently in place with respect of the NHS? Because it looks like an absolute shambles at the minute, but maybe that's just because I'm blinkered.

[Ayatollah Hermione 12774]

Stop it.

[Christmas Tree 3997]

You think so huh?

 

You reckon Scotland will break away? I'm hoping it does. We have a one party state anyway, may as well seal the deal and just call this a 'democracy' in the same sense that China calls itself one.

 

It's the end of history in the UK and wouldn't you know it, the super wealthy were right all along.

A one party state

 

In the last 20 odd years we've had:

 

13 years of Labour government.

5 years of coalition.

2 years of conservative.

 

Perspective?

[Rayvin 4964]

Stop it.

 

You're right, sorry.

[Dr Gloom 19863]

howay then, CT, level with us. 

 

how close was MF in his assessment of your formative political years? 

[Christmas Tree 3997]

Actually just to query a point, are you saying that a clear and professional vision is currently in place with respect of the NHS? Because it looks like an absolute shambles at the minute, but maybe that's just because I'm blinkered.

Not at all. I'm saying most voters realise that nobody has the answers yet to solving the NHS's many difficulties.

[adios 717]

Oh good, it's this cunt.

[Dr Gloom 19863]

he's been itching to post for weeks now. incredible restraint really. 

[Happy Face 29]

[Rayvin 4964]

Not at all. I'm saying most voters realise that nobody has the answers yet to solving the NHS's many difficulties.

 

I suspect the issue is a wider lack of political will rather than no one knowing what to do about it. It's not like it's an unsolvable equation, we just don't have a government with the stones to do what needs to be done. More long term vision needed.

 

As an aside, CT, let's just accept that Corbyn will lose. What do you think happens after that? Assuming he stands down, which isn't actually a given. The people 'holding' Labour to ransom aren't going to depart the party. They aren't suddenly going to wake up and decide that the Blairite vision is the one true way. So the party stays over on the left, by most reasonable measures, I would think. Maybe a slight compromise position in an attempt at unity, but policies remain broadly the same.

 

If the Blairites can't find a home there, they split out. Maybe join the Liberals, maybe forge something new, maybe die off altogether. Either way, the centre left vote is split three ways. None would be able to challenge the Tories. The SNP will take Scotland out of the union, and this further reduces any likely progressive or liberal action.

 

I guess from here... then what? Who displaces the Tories (incidentally the coalition was a Tory government in policy so I'm treating it as such in name)?

 

You'll argue that the left will wake up from it's delusions and will become pragmatic again but there's no real guarantee of that, and the numbers in the party of stacked against such a thing. I suspect we're condemned to years upon years of incompetent, ideology driven governing.

 

EDIT - As an aside, to everyone else, I'm actually genuinely interested in the answer to this rather than getting sucked into more back and forth (which I really should avoid as I do enough of that anyway).

Edited April 20, 2017 by Rayvin

[adios 717]

Stop it.

[Rayvin 4964]

...

 

FFS I guess I'll ban myself from the thread for the evening then.

[adios 717]

 

The reality is, you're never going to get an intelligent answer from him (for obvious reasons) or anyone of his ilk.

 

And I like reading the (relatively) intelligent and reasoned opinions of people in these threads, so I'd rather not see them return to absolute clusterfuckery.

[Dr Gloom 19863]

So what was it that led to the latest flounce, CT? There's been a lot of debate in your absence.

 

Was MF's analysis too close to the bone? Or was it the jar jar binks separated at birth photo that did it?

 

Always thought you had thicker skin tbh. Literally and metaphorically.

[Dr Gloom 19863]

I suspect the issue is a wider lack of political will rather than no one knowing what to do about it. It's not like it's an unsolvable equation, we just don't have a government with the stones to do what needs to be done. More long term vision needed.

 

As an aside, CT, let's just accept that Corbyn will lose. What do you think happens after that? Assuming he stands down, which isn't actually a given. The people 'holding' Labour to ransom aren't going to depart the party. They aren't suddenly going to wake up and decide that the Blairite vision is the one true way. So the party stays over on the left, by most reasonable measures, I would think. Maybe a slight compromise position in an attempt at unity, but policies remain broadly the same.

 

If the Blairites can't find a home there, they split out. Maybe join the Liberals, maybe forge something new, maybe die off altogether. Either way, the centre left vote is split three ways. None would be able to challenge the Tories. The SNP will take Scotland out of the union, and this further reduces any likely progressive or liberal action.

 

I guess from here... then what? Who displaces the Tories (incidentally the coalition was a Tory government in policy so I'm treating it as such in name)?

 

You'll argue that the left will wake up from it's delusions and will become pragmatic again but there's no real guarantee of that, and the numbers in the party of stacked against such a thing. I suspect we're condemned to years upon years of incompetent, ideology driven governing.

 

EDIT - As an aside, to everyone else, I'm actually genuinely interested in the answer to this rather than getting sucked into more back and forth (which I really should avoid as I do enough of that anyway).

Presuming Scotland don't leave the union and the tories make the balls up of brexit that they seem intent on, I wouldn't be surprised if a grand centre-left coalition governed in the future. Corbyn has to go first but don't rule out a young, charismatic leader with similar left wing principles coming through the ranks to replace him and galvanise the party. We are destined to 5 more years of these bastards first though, that much is clear.

[Christmas Tree 3997]

I suspect the issue is a wider lack of political will rather than no one knowing what to do about it. It's not like it's an unsolvable equation, we just don't have a government with the stones to do what needs to be done. More long term vision needed.

 

As an aside, CT, let's just accept that Corbyn will lose. What do you think happens after that? Assuming he stands down, which isn't actually a given. The people 'holding' Labour to ransom aren't going to depart the party. They aren't suddenly going to wake up and decide that the Blairite vision is the one true way. So the party stays over on the left, by most reasonable measures, I would think. Maybe a slight compromise position in an attempt at unity, but policies remain broadly the same.

 

If the Blairites can't find a home there, they split out. Maybe join the Liberals, maybe forge something new, maybe die off altogether. Either way, the centre left vote is split three ways. None would be able to challenge the Tories. The SNP will take Scotland out of the union, and this further reduces any likely progressive or liberal action.

 

I guess from here... then what? Who displaces the Tories (incidentally the coalition was a Tory government in policy so I'm treating it as such in name)?

 

You'll argue that the left will wake up from it's delusions and will become pragmatic again but there's no real guarantee of that, and the numbers in the party of stacked against such a thing. I suspect we're condemned to years upon years of incompetent, ideology driven governing.

 

EDIT - As an aside, to everyone else, I'm actually genuinely interested in the answer to this rather than getting sucked into more back and forth (which I really should avoid as I do enough of that anyway).

Regarding the NHS I really don't think anyone does have the answer. Lots of governments have tinkered and made it worse.

 

As for Labour who knows. Politics has become so unpredictable. Corbyn won't go until the leadership rules are changed allowing another "hard left" candidate onto the ballot. At that point it's always going to be momentums party and it's game over as an electable party.

 

That will probably lead to either an amalgamation with the liberals or a new centre left party. A split never materialised because nobody wanted to lose the Labour brand. If it's "crushed" as the polls predict (not forgetting the impact of 2018 boundary changes), then the brand is not that important.

 

Having said all that, after Brexit and a Trump, anything can happen. Prime Minister Corbyn maybe only weeks away.

[Rayvin 4964]

That sort of thing only seems to happen if you're on the right, unfortunately. Thanks for the answer though.

[Rayvin 4964]

Presuming Scotland don't leave the union and the tories make the balls up of brexit that they seem intent on, I wouldn't be surprised if a grand centre-left coalition governed in the future. Corbyn has to go first but don't rule out a young, charismatic leader with similar left wing principles coming through the ranks to replace him and galvanise the party. We are destined to 5 more years of these bastards first though, that much is clear.

Also thanks for this. I can see it going this way too.

[Christmas Tree 3997]

So what was it that led to the latest flounce, CT? There's been a lot of debate in your absence.

 

Was MF's analysis too close to the bone? Or was it the jar jar binks separated at birth photo that did it?

 

Always thought you had thicker skin tbh. Literally and metaphorically.

I honestly can't recall what MF said.

 

Bottom line is I don't mind discussing politics but I have no time for the vitriol that some want to engage in. It's tiresome.

 

If people only want a left conversation that's fine. I'm quite content having the odd read now and then.

[Renton 17848]

@Christmas Tree, how could El Corbynista win your vote? Remembering, free bacon sndwiches aren't economically viable.

 

@@Renton, will you swallow your contempt and vote Corby, or is the concern of lost Labour grassroots that it'll only encoiurage him to stick around after defeat?

I'll vote for my Labour parliamentary constituency representative, not Corbyn.

 

I'm in utter dismay with politics at the moment and for the foreseeable. It's an ongoing fucking nightmare which I fully hope to avoid engaging in.

[Renton 17848]

Mind, the liberal democrat party political broadcast that was just broadcast was spot on (groundhog day). Might give them a go after all.

[Rayvin 4964]

http://anotherangryvoice.blogspot.co.uk/2017/04/how-many-of-jeremy-corbyns-policies-do.html

 

"How many of Corbyn's policies do you disagree with"

[adios 717]

A quick scan and I agree in principle with everything position, complete renationalisation might be a step too far and I'm not sure exactly what the minimum wage should be.

 

Unfortunately, you have to be able to play the game these days too.  Didn't someone post a link on here about how the vast majority of people would vote Green purely on the issues?

[Christmas Tree 3997]

http://anotherangryvoice.blogspot.co.uk/2017/04/how-many-of-jeremy-corbyns-policies-do.html

 

"How many of Corbyn's policies do you disagree with"

It will be interesting to see how many of those policies make it into their manifesto and whether, as promised, they are costed out.

 

Also what their own policy is on Brexit.