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Rayvin
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Heard a clip on the radio a father had just heard his missing 8 year old daughter had been found. He cried with joy. Hold on I thought, what did "found" mean? She was found dead. Here's the thing, he knew this, but was relieved for her because the alternative was worse. And I got that.

 

This was no ordinary terrorist act, you can't understate the profound effect this will have had on Israel's psyche. Like all of us I'm in despair but I'll not be too quick to judge the retaliation, which will be disproportionate in terms of numbers but not savagery.

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21 minutes ago, Rayvin said:

 

Honestly am a bit taken aback by the the response from UK based Palestinians. It’s mnot like British Jewish people have anything to do with this - they'd be better off going for the Britain itself in terms of culpability.


I’m surprised that you’re surprised. People have always hated Jews. And antisemitism isn’t about hating Israel, it’s worth remembering 

 


 

 

 


 

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10 minutes ago, Renton said:

Heard a clip on the radio a father had just heard his missing 8 year old daughter had been found. He cried with joy. Hold on I thought, what did "found" mean? She was found dead. Here's the thing, he knew this, but was relieved for her because the alternative was worse. And I got that.

 

This was no ordinary terrorist act, you can't understate the profound effect this will have had on Israel's psyche. Like all of us I'm in despair but I'll not be too quick to judge the retaliation, which will be disproportionate in terms of numbers but not savagery.


The bloke was hysterical with grief. No surprise when you read some of the reports of what Hamas did to children and babies. 

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21 minutes ago, Renton said:

Heard a clip on the radio a father had just heard his missing 8 year old daughter had been found. He cried with joy. Hold on I thought, what did "found" mean? She was found dead. Here's the thing, he knew this, but was relieved for her because the alternative was worse. And I got that.

 

This was no ordinary terrorist act, you can't understate the profound effect this will have had on Israel's psyche. Like all of us I'm in despair but I'll not be too quick to judge the retaliation, which will be disproportionate in terms of numbers but not savagery.

 

450 children so far mind.. 

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12 minutes ago, Dr Gloom said:


I’m surprised that you’re surprised. People have always hated Jews. And antisemitism isn’t about hating Israel, it’s worth remembering 

 


 

 

 


 

 

Do you think there's any possibility that a lot of these reactions might be coming from the wider indifference to the deaths of Palestinian people and the implications of Israel's apartheid? This is a sincere question rather than a rhetorical one.

 

I'm not sure this is as simple as they hate Jews just because they hate Jews. I think they would argue they hate Jews "because..."

 

Not saying that makes this situation any better for British Jews who have nothing to do with this of course, it's completely misplaced hatred either way that wrongly focuses on ethnicity instead of government policy.

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11 minutes ago, Rayvin said:

 

Do you think there's any possibility that a lot of these reactions might be coming from the wider indifference to the deaths of Palestinian people and the implications of Israel's apartheid? This is a sincere question rather than a rhetorical one.

 

I'm not sure this is as simple as they hate Jews just because they hate Jews. I think they would argue they hate Jews "because..."

 

Not saying that makes this situation any better for British Jews who have nothing to do with this of course, it's completely misplaced hatred either way that wrongly focuses on ethnicity instead of government policy.


conflating Jewish people with the state of Israel is antisemitic. I don’t know why people hate Jews so much. But Jews were hated and persecuted for centuries before the creation of the state of Israel 

 

Give this a listen. David Baddiel puts it better than I ever could 

 

https://www.bbc.co.uk/sounds/play/p0gl7bfn?partner=uk.co.bbc&origin=share-mobile

Edited by Dr Gloom
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3 minutes ago, Rayvin said:

 

I believe those reports are still unverified. Israel walked that one back and has since claimed that they can't confirm it.


I don’t know where you saw that. I saw Nomara tweet that, unsurprisingly. 
 

It’s reported on Reuters. An Israeli official was describing scenes she’d seen. 

 

I’m not trying to point score. I’m tryinf to give you a sense of what Renton meant about what these attacks have done to the Israeli psyche.
 
Reuters are also reporting Israel has released photos of a dead baby and a charred infant. This article was updated just four hours ago. 

 

https://www.reuters.com/world/nato-ministers-shown-horrific-video-hamas-attack-2023-10-12/

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17 minutes ago, Dr Gloom said:


conflating Jewish people with the state of Israel is antisemitic. I don’t know people hate Jews so much. But Jews were hated and persecuted for centuries before the creation of the state of Israel 

 

Give this a listen. David Baddiel puts it better than I ever could 

 

https://www.bbc.co.uk/sounds/play/p0gl7bfn?partner=uk.co.bbc&origin=share-mobile

 

I'm not disputing that, I am simply saying in the case of Palestine, I think there is an actual reason for Palestinian Arabs to be very hostile to Israel - and consequently for the less well educated amongst them to broaden that out to Jews in general. They see themselves as victims being persecuted so they build up resentment and hatred.

 

I don't think considering this as the same sort of antisemitism as that which Jewish people have suffered for centuries at the hands of Europeans in general is necessarily a helpful approach. It suggests for instance that there is nothing that Israel could do to influence this situation to a better outcome - when in fact its own hatred of Palestinians is complicit in fuelling a lot of this.

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2 minutes ago, Dr Gloom said:


I don’t know where you saw that. I saw Nomara tweet that, unsurprisingly. 
 

It’s reported on Reuters. An Israeli official was describing scenes she’d seen. 

 

I’m not trying to point score. I’m tryinf to give you a sense of what Renton meant about what these attacks have done to the Israeli psyche.
 
Reuters are also reporting Israel has released photos of a dead baby and a charred infant. This article was updated just four hours ago. 

 

https://www.reuters.com/world/nato-ministers-shown-horrific-video-hamas-attack-2023-10-12/

 

https://edition.cnn.com/2023/10/12/middleeast/israel-hamas-beheading-claims-intl/index.html

 

Here is the Israeli government walking back the beheading claim. The Israeli official wasn't describing things she had seen, she was describing what an Israeli soldier had told her he had seen, apparently.

 

I have seen those images of the poor child too - clearly a lot of children are dying in this moment. Many children died before this moment too. All of it is absolutely despicable and unforgiveable irrespective of who carried it out.

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3 minutes ago, Rayvin said:

 

https://edition.cnn.com/2023/10/12/middleeast/israel-hamas-beheading-claims-intl/index.html

 

Here is the Israeli government walking back the beheading claim. The Israeli official wasn't describing things she had seen, she was describing what an Israeli soldier had told her he had seen, apparently.

 

I have seen those images of the poor child too - clearly a lot of children are dying in this moment. Many children died before this moment too. All of it is absolutely despicable and unforgiveable irrespective of who carried it out.


ok, babies murdered, and people beheaded, maybe.

 

this is from Reuters, which I think we can all agree is a trusted source 

 

JERUSALEM/TEL AVIV/BRUSSELS, Oct 12 (Reuters) - Israel's government showed U.S. Secretary of State Antony Blinken and NATO defence ministers graphic images of dead children and civilians on Thursday, saying they were killed by Palestinian group Hamas as it builds support for its response.


Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu's office also released on social media a picture of a dead infant in a pool of blood and the charred body of a child, part of an apparent effort to stoke global anger against the Gaza militants over Saturday's attack.

 

Blinken, who flew into Tel Aviv earlier on Thursday, told reporters he was shown photographs and videos of a baby riddled with bullets, soldiers beheaded and young people burned alive in their cars or hideaways.

 

"It's simply depravity in the worst imaginable way," Blinken told a news briefing. "Images are worth a thousand words. These images may be worth a million."

 

Netanyahu has vowed to annihilate Hamas following its deadly assault on unsuspecting Israeli communities on Saturday, which killed more than 1,300 people, the deadliest attack on Israel since it was founded in 1948.

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1 hour ago, Dr Gloom said:


ok, babies murdered, and people beheaded, maybe.

 

this is from Reuters, which I think we can all agree is a trusted source 

 

JERUSALEM/TEL AVIV/BRUSSELS, Oct 12 (Reuters) - Israel's government showed U.S. Secretary of State Antony Blinken and NATO defence ministers graphic images of dead children and civilians on Thursday, saying they were killed by Palestinian group Hamas as it builds support for its response.


Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu's office also released on social media a picture of a dead infant in a pool of blood and the charred body of a child, part of an apparent effort to stoke global anger against the Gaza militants over Saturday's attack.

 

Blinken, who flew into Tel Aviv earlier on Thursday, told reporters he was shown photographs and videos of a baby riddled with bullets, soldiers beheaded and young people burned alive in their cars or hideaways.

 

"It's simply depravity in the worst imaginable way," Blinken told a news briefing. "Images are worth a thousand words. These images may be worth a million."

 

Netanyahu has vowed to annihilate Hamas following its deadly assault on unsuspecting Israeli communities on Saturday, which killed more than 1,300 people, the deadliest attack on Israel since it was founded in 1948.

 

I'm not here to say that any of that isn't barbaric. But I think I might be here to say that Israel has done a lot of similar stuff over the years, and if as Renton says we're talking about a huge and devastating long term effect on the psyche of Israel based on what has just happened, presumably we have to accept that a huge and devastating long term effect has already been had on Palestinians. That huge and devastating effect is definitely part of why we're here.

 

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-12283431/CCTV-shows-Palestinian-boy-shot-dead-Israeli-sniper-unarmed.html Israeli sniper shoots and kills a teenage boy as he tries to give blood.

 

https://apnews.com/article/palestinian-child-killed-west-bank-violence-9360cf006193ab8f1139c4fdb43e4f73 Israeli soldier shoots and kills a toddler 3 months ago.

 

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2004/nov/24/israel Israeli soldiers shoot a 10 year old girl dead as she's running away, confirm the kill by emptying their magazine into her, and then claim that they would have killed her even if she was 3 years old.

 

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2018/apr/10/video-appears-show-cheers-israeli-sniper-shoots-palestinian Israeli sniper executes an unarmed Palestinian man to cheering from his comrades, just because he could.

 

Since 2000, Israeli soldiers and settlers have murdered 2,171 Palestinian children. On top of which, 139 Israeli children have been murdered by Palestinian militants.

 

To say this state of affairs is tragic is actually a huge understatement. The world should be utterly appalled at the decades of horror and torment that both sides have lived under.

 

I think my point in all of this is where Anthony fucking Blinken has been for all of the atrocities going the other way. Perhaps if he and others had stood up and done something about it, we wouldn't be where we are right now, drowning in yet more death and misery.

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1 hour ago, Renton said:

This was no ordinary terrorist act, you can't understate the profound effect this will have had on Israel's psyche. Like all of us I'm in despair but I'll not be too quick to judge the retaliation, which will be disproportionate in terms of numbers but not savagery.

 

I'm sorry, it's not savagery for Israel to murder thousands of civilians in light of what Hamas did, but savagery for Hamas to do what they did in light of what Palestine has been subjected to over decades? Tens of thousands of Palestinian civilians and children slaughtered? Occupation, blockade, apartheid, violation of international law and countless war crimes? 

I'm curious at what point does Israel become 'savage'? 

 

Whatever the history, what Hamas did is inexcusable and indefensible. I apply the same standards to Israel and put them in the same bracket. Possibly worse actually if you start thinking about it because they have a well armed military to defend themselves, Gaza does not. I was trying to not get into that gutter game.

 

Children murdering terrorists are children murdering terrorists. I dont care what they call themselves, what they look like or what language they speak. Fucking terrorists the lot of them. 

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Iranian Foreign Minister, Hossein Amir-Abdollahian:

 

"I extend my congratulations to the Palestinian people on Operation Al-Aqsa Flood in response to the war crimes committed by Netanyahu"

"We are here to confirm the Islamic peoples and governments’ rejection of the continuation of war crimes against the Palestinians"

"The bombing of Gaza, displacement, and cutting off water are considered a war crime committed by the Zionist entity"

"I will hold talks with Lebanese officials regarding the situation in Gaza"

"With the continuation of war crimes against the Palestinians, all possibilities are possible in the region"

 

(Al Jazeera)

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7 hours ago, Dr Gloom said:


I don’t think it’s weird. It’s exactly like after 9/11 when America’s allies supported its retaliation in Afghanistan.
 

Israel just came under an unprecedented terrorist attack. The bombing of civilians in Gaza is deplorable but I’d be more surprised if Israel’s strategic allies didn’t stand shoulder to shoulder with it now.  


This response to 9/11? You killed 3000 of ours so we will kill 937,000 of yours? The answer to a terrorist incident isn't carpet bombing civilians. It wasn't then and it isn't now. 

 

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/War_on_terror

 

IMG_5199.jpeg.9996e6b716e3febb60681376cec7ceb4.jpeg

Edited by Kid Dynamite
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42 minutes ago, Kid Dynamite said:


This response to 9/11? You killed 3000 of ours so we will kill 937,000 of yours? The answer to a terrorist incident isn't carpet bombing civilians. It wasn't then and it isn't now. 

 

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/War_on_terror

 

IMG_5199.jpeg.9996e6b716e3febb60681376cec7ceb4.jpeg

 
I’m not claiming the retaliation was proportionate. but there was always going to be a retaliation and America’s allies were always going to support it. the situation is no different.  
 

Can you imagine if something similar happened in the UK? If we had come under a similar attack from an enemy on our border? Do you think we’d take a principled stand and not retaliate? I’d like to think so but it’s hard to imagine 

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5 hours ago, ohhh_yeah said:

 

Iranian Foreign Minister, Hossein Amir-Abdollahian:

 

"I extend my congratulations to the Palestinian people on Operation Al-Aqsa Flood in response to the war crimes committed by Netanyahu"

"We are here to confirm the Islamic peoples and governments’ rejection of the continuation of war crimes against the Palestinians"

"The bombing of Gaza, displacement, and cutting off water are considered a war crime committed by the Zionist entity"

"I will hold talks with Lebanese officials regarding the situation in Gaza"

"With the continuation of war crimes against the Palestinians, all possibilities are possible in the region"

 

(Al Jazeera)


these cunts are the ones who have blood on their hands this time - Palestinian and Israeli blood.
 

Hamas acts were despicable but they’re pawns. Israel’s retaliation is going to be devastating and disproportionate but none of this would be happening if they hadn’t been on course to normalise relations with Saudi   

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6 hours ago, aimaad22 said:

 

I'm sorry, it's not savagery for Israel to murder thousands of civilians in light of what Hamas did, but savagery for Hamas to do what they did in light of what Palestine has been subjected to over decades? Tens of thousands of Palestinian civilians and children slaughtered? Occupation, blockade, apartheid, violation of international law and countless war crimes? 

I'm curious at what point does Israel become 'savage'? 

 

Whatever the history, what Hamas did is inexcusable and indefensible. I apply the same standards to Israel and put them in the same bracket. Possibly worse actually if you start thinking about it because they have a well armed military to defend themselves, Gaza does not. I was trying to not get into that gutter game.

 

Children murdering terrorists are children murdering terrorists. I dont care what they call themselves, what they look like or what language they speak. Fucking terrorists the lot of them. 

 

I don't really disagree. I do think maybe there is a qualitative difference to the brutality and methods used in this attack by Hamas. Executing children in the way that has been alleged promotes a visceral response. The question I ask myself, presuming this is true (and the audio I heard certainly seemed to be), is did Hamas do this because they are desensitised psychopaths, or did they do it deliberatley in order to provoke the extreme response by Israel we are witnessing? Or could it be both? 

 

Dropping bombs, shooting people in conflict, civilians dying as collateral damage, is detached, it feels different. But the end result is very similar in terms of the hate and vacuum it leaves in a familys life and the next round of violence. Hamas knew this, but did this anyway, presumably on purpose. In a way, they have done this to their own people. They could rerlease the hostages, after all, then the moral burden would be shifted to Israel. Why won't they? 

Edited by Renton
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6 hours ago, aimaad22 said:

 

I'm sorry, it's not savagery for Israel to murder thousands of civilians in light of what Hamas did, but savagery for Hamas to do what they did in light of what Palestine has been subjected to over decades? Tens of thousands of Palestinian civilians and children slaughtered? Occupation, blockade, apartheid, violation of international law and countless war crimes? 

I'm curious at what point does Israel become 'savage'? 

 

Whatever the history, what Hamas did is inexcusable and indefensible. I apply the same standards to Israel and put them in the same bracket. Possibly worse actually if you start thinking about it because they have a well armed military to defend themselves, Gaza does not. I was trying to not get into that gutter game.

 

Children murdering terrorists are children murdering terrorists. I dont care what they call themselves, what they look like or what language they speak. Fucking terrorists the lot of them. 


enough with the whataboutery man ffs. No one is claiming Israel hasn’t behaved despicably over the years 

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15 minutes ago, Dr Gloom said:

 
I’m not claiming the retaliation was proportionate. but there was always going to be a retaliation and America’s allies were always going to support it. the situation is no different.  
 

Can you imagine if something similar happened in the UK? If we had come under a similar attack from an enemy on our border? Do you think we’d take a principled stand and not retaliate? I’d like to think so but it’s hard to imagine 

If we had the sort of military advantage that the Israeli have, I think you would see something similar. With overwhelming public support too. Without even getting into the rights and wrongs I think that’s what would happen 

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