Renton 18010 Posted October 15, 2023 Share Posted October 15, 2023 1 hour ago, Kid Dynamite said: It may not be intentional, but you've come across as anti-Palestine since day one of this shit show. I don't think that's either true or fair. Gloom has condemned the leadership of both sides. and if I'm not mistaken, is in support of a fair and functional two state solution. Part of the problem here is the asymmetric nature of the power, which means there will always be far more Palestinians killed and displaced compared with Israel. My own feeling is Israel must show restraint and patience now, not fall into the trap Hamas has set to ignite the entire region. Public buildings and hospitals must be protected, power and water must be restored, the evacuation order should be rescinded. Because otherwise it is clear Israel is commuting a war crime and no way should we support that. They will and we will though. 2 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kid Dynamite 6068 Posted October 15, 2023 Share Posted October 15, 2023 During that 2014 spike, soldiers aside, 5 Israeli civilians were killed. In return. 1500 Palestinian civilians were killed and 11,000 were injured, 3400 of which were kids and 1000 of them left permanently disabled. When does the line cross from self-defence to war crimes? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
spongebob toonpants 3642 Posted October 15, 2023 Share Posted October 15, 2023 6 minutes ago, Kid Dynamite said: During that 2014 spike, soldiers aside, 5 Israeli civilians were killed. In return. 1500 Palestinian civilians were killed and 11,000 were injured, 3400 of which were kids and 1000 of them left permanently disabled. When does the line cross from self-defence to war crimes? Who do you imagine you are arguing against here. Dr G neither supports nor condones Netanyahu or the right wing loons ruling Isreal. Conflating Isrealis with their govt is exactly yhe same as blaming Palestinians for Hamas. 2 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alex 30738 Posted October 15, 2023 Share Posted October 15, 2023 The last couple of lines from Renton kind of nails it for me. What is happening (not just the most recent events) is down to so many external factors and not just the direct combatants at present. The unwavering support for Israel and ignoring the simmering resentment / plight of the Palestinians on one side. Then the stoking of the flames from Iran and others. Saudi Arabia making a play in their regional opposition to Iran. Egypt helping in the blockade of Gaza (again not just recently). All of it gradually making things worse until it blows up again. And it will happen in the future too if Israel just complete a successful military operation which is essentially a short term fix. It’s profoundly depressing and I don’t know how you put it right. But I don’t think just blaming one side solves anything. And for what little my opinion is worth, I think it’s grossly unfair to say Gloom has been anti-Palestinian in the views he’s expressed. 2 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dr Gloom 20087 Posted October 15, 2023 Share Posted October 15, 2023 (edited) 1 hour ago, Kid Dynamite said: Howay man Do you genuinely believe Israel is the oppressed party (ie Ukraine) in this long saga? again, you'll have to explain how you've come to that conclusion based on what i've posted. obviously the number of palestinian lives needlessly lost is horrific, but what does that have to do with what i said? should we only feel empathy for the slaughtered palstinians because they have been murdered in greater numbers? it is a terrible straw man reply to my post, which was an attempt to highlight the lack of compassion for jewish people in the light of what happened last saturday. it should be striking but it isn't. i felt it during the antisemitism scandal in the labour party while corbyn was leader - when people claimed it wasn't an issue, that it been created by the right wing press - and i feel it today. i didn't want to believe that there was a blindspot in the progressive left at first - these are my people and my politics - but i can tell you, as a jew, it exists. Edited October 15, 2023 by Dr Gloom 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Renton 18010 Posted October 15, 2023 Share Posted October 15, 2023 8 minutes ago, Kid Dynamite said: During that 2014 spike, soldiers aside, 5 Israeli civilians were killed. In return. 1500 Palestinian civilians were killed and 11,000 were injured, 3400 of which were kids and 1000 of them left permanently disabled. When does the line cross from self-defence to war crimes? Well, war crimes aren't determined by the number of casualties necessarily. Both sides commit war crimes. A question for you though, given the stated aim of Hamas is not only the extermination of Israel but also the Jewish people, and given they were actually elected in Gaza, what do you think Israel should do? It's a massively fucked up situation with no solutions I can see. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dr Gloom 20087 Posted October 15, 2023 Share Posted October 15, 2023 @Alex @spongebob toonpants @Renton Thank you lads. It's been a really tough few days. It's time for me to duck out of this thread for a bit Peace 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kid Dynamite 6068 Posted October 15, 2023 Share Posted October 15, 2023 (edited) I rescind the suggestion that Gloom has come across as anti-Palestine...maybe I'm inferring something that isn't there. I find the article comparing pro-Ukraine support with an absence of pro-Israel support crackers, though. Apples and Oranges (imo) Edited October 15, 2023 by Kid Dynamite Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kid Dynamite 6068 Posted October 15, 2023 Share Posted October 15, 2023 29 minutes ago, spongebob toonpants said: Who do you imagine you are arguing against here. Dr G neither supports nor condones Netanyahu or the right wing loons ruling Isreal. Conflating Isrealis with their govt is exactly yhe same as blaming Palestinians for Hamas. Im arguing against the suggestion in that article that more people should have Israeli flags up in their windows Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
spongebob toonpants 3642 Posted October 15, 2023 Share Posted October 15, 2023 25 minutes ago, Renton said: Well, war crimes aren't determined by the number of casualties necessarily. Both sides commit war crimes. A question for you though, given the stated aim of Hamas is not only the extermination of Israel but also the Jewish people, and given they were actually elected in Gaza, what do you think Israel should do? It's a massively fucked up situation with no solutions I can see. Have to be careful reading anything into Hamas being "elected" as this was a reaction to a perceived victory over Isreal in 2007 and they haven't allowed an election since Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kevin Carr's Gloves 3243 Posted October 15, 2023 Share Posted October 15, 2023 1 hour ago, Dr Gloom said: what? Well the illegal settlers for a start off. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kid Dynamite 6068 Posted October 15, 2023 Share Posted October 15, 2023 On 07/10/2023 at 13:50, Dr Gloom said: I’ve got family in southern Israel. It’s terrifying Missed this first time round. Apologies. I should have been more tactful. My views are what they are, but I appreciate having family in the middle of it would give things a different slant Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dr Gloom 20087 Posted October 15, 2023 Share Posted October 15, 2023 28 minutes ago, Kid Dynamite said: I rescind the suggestion that Gloom has come across as anti-Palestine...maybe I'm inferring something that isn't there. I find the article comparing pro-Ukraine support with an absence of pro-Israel support crackers, though. Apples and Oranges (imo) why is it crackers? Ukraine came under attack as did Israel. Should we feel less sympathy for innocent Israelis massacred by terrorists? A show of support and solidarity with Israelis wouldn’t demean the tragic loss of life in Ukraine or in the Palestinian Territories. Don’t all innocent victims deserve empathy? Why don’t we fly Israeli flags in solidarity? Is it because Israel doesn’t have a right to exist? Is it because Israelis are Jewish? The innocent civilians slaughtered by Hamas don’t have anything to do with what is happening in Gaza. They were just people. This was Israel’s 9/11. Hamas terrorists are not freedoms fighters and yet I saw people tweet “free Palestine” in response to news of the massacres in southern Israel last Saturday. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dr Gloom 20087 Posted October 15, 2023 Share Posted October 15, 2023 26 minutes ago, Kid Dynamite said: Missed this first time round. Apologies. I should have been more tactful. My views are what they are, but I appreciate having family in the middle of it would give things a different slant No worries. It makes it more personal, obviously. I know this is a highly charged and polarising issue but I sincerely believe it is possible to be pro-Palestine and pro-Israel. This is something the progressive left seems blind to, many of whom will only ever regard Israel and Israelis as oppressors. Unless you’re someone who doesn’t believe Israel has the right to exist. In which case we should just leave it. Right, I really am done with this now. Good night all Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andrew 4263 Posted October 15, 2023 Share Posted October 15, 2023 10 minutes ago, Dr Gloom said: Why don’t we fly Israeli flags in solidarity? Is it because Israel doesn’t have a right to exist? Is it because Israelis are Jewish? What would you say to the suggestion that everywhere you would want an Israeli flag flown in solidarity should have a Palestinian one right next to it? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kid Dynamite 6068 Posted October 15, 2023 Share Posted October 15, 2023 (edited) Quote why is it crackers? Ukraine came under attack as did Israel. Should we feel less sympathy for innocent Israelis massacred by terrorists? Because you can't just erase the last 15 years. A period where Palestinian deaths are 2000% higher than Israeli deaths. 15 minutes ago, Dr Gloom said: Why don’t we fly Israeli flags in solidarity? Is it because Israel doesn’t have a right to exist? Really? Edited October 15, 2023 by Kid Dynamite Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dr Gloom 20087 Posted October 15, 2023 Share Posted October 15, 2023 2 minutes ago, Andrew said: What would you say to the suggestion that everywhere you would want an Israeli flag flown in solidarity should have a Palestinian one right next to it? mate, there is no shortage of palestinian flags or messages of support and solidarity in london - that's the point Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andrew 4263 Posted October 15, 2023 Share Posted October 15, 2023 Just now, Dr Gloom said: mate, there is no shortage of palestinian flags or messages of support and solidarity in london - that's the point I dont live in London, Im asking you genuinely. Who are these flown by? Who do you want israeli flags to be flown by? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dr Gloom 20087 Posted October 15, 2023 Share Posted October 15, 2023 5 minutes ago, Andrew said: I dont live in London, Im asking you genuinely. Who are these flown by? Who do you want israeli flags to be flown by? mainly progressive tofu-eating wokerati types. my people, basically. i don't particularly expect or want anyone to fly a flag. people can show solidarity and support for whoever they like. it is just very apparent that people around here seem to care deeply about palestinan suffering, ukranian suffering, black people suffering. israeli people suffering, not so much. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andrew 4263 Posted October 15, 2023 Share Posted October 15, 2023 1 minute ago, Dr Gloom said: mainly progressive tofu-eating wokerati types. my people, basically. i don't particularly expect or want anyone to fly a flag. people can show solidarity and support for whoever they like. it is just very apparent that people around here seem to care deeply about palestinan suffering, ukranian suffering, black people suffering. israeli people suffering, not so much. Why do you think that is? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dr Gloom 20087 Posted October 15, 2023 Share Posted October 15, 2023 1 hour ago, Kevin Carr's Gloves said: Well the illegal settlers for a start off. the illegal settlements are deplorable. i have said this many times. they in no way justify the hamas atrocities Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dr Gloom 20087 Posted October 15, 2023 Share Posted October 15, 2023 Just now, Andrew said: Why do you think that is? you tell me. i've already expressed a couple of theories Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dr Gloom 20087 Posted October 15, 2023 Share Posted October 15, 2023 18 minutes ago, Kid Dynamite said: Because you can't just erase the last 15 years. A period where Palestinian deaths are 2000% higher than Israeli deaths. Really? the number of palestinian deaths does not make the hamas atrocities in israel last saturday any less despicable. sorry Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kid Dynamite 6068 Posted October 15, 2023 Share Posted October 15, 2023 11 minutes ago, Dr Gloom said: the number of palestinian deaths does not make the hamas atrocities in israel last saturday any less despicable. sorry I know. But the converse is also true Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Renton 18010 Posted October 15, 2023 Share Posted October 15, 2023 (edited) I haven't seen any Israeli or Palestinian flags here. Given the nature of this crisis, I would feel uneasy with both or either. No US flags after 9/11 either. Ukraine, yes, plenty. Why? I think because it was in Europe, it was was a relatively new conflict involving a old common foe, Russia is a country committing these atrocities, not a terror group, and it was an attack against our own freedoms. Not only that, we directly received thousands of Ukrainian refugees and wanted to show solidarity at a physical level It was personal. Ujraine was and is the exception to the rule. Edited October 15, 2023 by Renton Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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