Middle East Crisis

[Dr Gloom 20115]

12 minutes ago, Renton said:

 

I don't really disagree. I do think maybe there is a qualitative difference to the brutality and methods used in this attack by Hamas. Executing children in the way that has been alleged promotes a visceral response. The question I ask myself, presuming this is true (and the audio I heard certainly seemed to be), is did Hamas do this because they are desensitised psychopaths, or did they do it deliberatley in order to provoke the extreme response by Israel we are witnessing? Or could it be both? 

 

Dropping bombs, shooting people in conflict, civilians dying as collateral damage, is detached, it feels different. But the end result is very similar in terms of the hate and vacuum it leaves in a familys life and the next round of violence. Hamas knew this, but did this anyway, presumably on purpose. In a way, they have done this to their own people. They could rerlease the hostages, after all, then the moral burden would be shifted to Israel. Why won't they? 

100% Hamas knew what the response would be and sought it. they do not give a fuck about Israeli or Palestinian civilians  
 

The newsagents were good on this yesterday (as always). It’s like one bloke going up to a massive group of blokes, nutting one then saying “come and have go you think you’re hard enough” to the rest   

[Dr Gloom 20115]

9 minutes ago, Alex said:

If we had the sort of military advantage that the Israeli have, I think you would see something similar. With overwhelming public support too. Without even getting into the rights and wrongs I think that’s what would happen 

 

yup, that’s all I was saying. It’s easy to take a principled stand when you don’t have skin in the game 

[Renton 18016]

5 minutes ago, Dr Gloom said:

 

yup, that’s all I was saying. It’s easy to take a principled stand when you don’t have skin in the game 

 

Also true to say I think, if the boot were on the other foot and Hamas had acces to this military power, thye would be completely merciless. 

[The Fish 9190]

9 hours ago, Rayvin said:

 

Honestly am a bit taken aback by the the response from UK based Palestinians. Its not like British Jewish people have anything to do with this - they'd be better off going for the Britain itself in terms of culpability.

Really? I think it's entirely in-keeping with humanity right now. It wasn't 'Muslims' that flew into the twin towers, it was a death cult. It wasn't people from the Far East that created the Corona Virus, it was allegedly some people in a Wuhan Lab, it wasn't...

 

People want to blame a group, them vs us. It's reductive and futile, but it's stoked by the media and the politicians so it's entirely understandable why the people fall lock step in line.

 

Making the distinction between the actions of the Israeli government, and Jewish people requires a scintilla of critical thinking, and that's harder than not doing that.

[Holden McGroin 5044]

I’m sure my knowledge of this conflict doesn’t scratch the surface. I know both sides are culpable. 

 

Any side that targets civilians should be seen as terrorists (in any war).  What were the Hamas expecting after the attack on Saturday?  Cutting a baby out of a pregnant woman (whilst alive) then shooting in her in the head. That’s not war. That’s not a strategic military target. That’s going to force Israel to take severe action. 
 

Are Hamas representative of the people of Palestine?  (Genuine question btw)

As always civilians will be the losers. 
 

 

 

[Rayvin 4964]

1 hour ago, Dr Gloom said:

 

yup, that’s all I was saying. It’s easy to take a principled stand when you don’t have skin in the game 

 

What would we do if we were Palestine? I don't understand why this question isn't asked. Imagine we were brutalised under apartheid, with our oppressor frequently and randomly killing our civilians over the years, including 2000 children. What would the British response to that be?

[Dr Gloom 20115]

28 minutes ago, The Fish said:

Really? I think it's entirely in-keeping with humanity right now. It wasn't 'Muslims' that flew into the twin towers, it was a death cult. It wasn't people from the Far East that created the Corona Virus, it was allegedly some people in a Wuhan Lab, it wasn't...

 

People want to blame a group, them vs us. It's reductive and futile, but it's stoked by the media and the politicians so it's entirely understandable why the people fall lock step in line.

 

Making the distinction between the actions of the Israeli government, and Jewish people requires a scintilla of critical thinking, and that's harder than not doing that.

 

it's the world we live in, the footballification of politics.

 

there is so little decency because people are so entrenched in their position. i try to remain balanced when i talk about israel. it isn't always easy, and i probably sometimes let my family connection to the country cloud my thinking, but some of the commentary on twitter and elsewhere is just so tasteless, i have no words really. 

 

some of the comments to tweets reporting the terrorist attacks upset me so much i took the twitter app off my phone to cut my doom scrolling. you've got so-called progressive left wing commentators, some of whom i used to respect, attempting to use israel's occupation and blockade to justify the hamas attacks. 

 

Edited October 13, 2023 by Dr Gloom

[The Fish 9190]

2 minutes ago, Rayvin said:

 

What would we do if we were Palestine? I don't understand why this question isn't asked. Imagine we were brutalised under apartheid, with our oppressor frequently and randomly killing our civilians over the years, including 2000 children. What would the British response to that be?

A sternly worded letter to Anne Robinson's Point of View?

 

Jokes aside I'm trying to think of a remotely similar historical experience. The Romans? The Saxons? The Vikings? What did the average person do then? What did the leaders?

[Dr Gloom 20115]

10 minutes ago, Holden McGroin said:

I’m sure my knowledge of this conflict doesn’t scratch the surface. I know both sides are culpable. 

 

Any side that targets civilians should be seen as terrorists (in any war).  What were the Hamas expecting after the attack on Saturday?  Cutting a baby out of a pregnant woman (whilst alive) then shooting in her in the head. That’s not war. That’s not a strategic military target. That’s going to force Israel to take severe action. 
 

Are Hamas representative of the people of Palestine?  (Genuine question btw)

As always civilians will be the losers. 
 

 

 

 

100% No. 

 

Nor does Bibi and his coalition of nationalist nutters speak for all Israelis - he should be behind bars. 

[Renton 18016]

4 minutes ago, Dr Gloom said:

 

100% No. 

 

Nor does Bibi and his coalition of nationalist nutters speak for all Israelis - he should be behind bars. 

 

But Hamas are also the government of Gaza aren't they? This is what happens when you get the worst possible representation in your country, on both sides. Sprinkle in years of oppression and desensitisation, a belief in martyrdom and a callous disregard for human life (I mean who cares when you're going to paradise?), all the ingredients for the powder keg are there, just took a match.

 

Those people in South Gaza who need to evacuate, they aren't ever going back, are they? I was reading as well that 50% of the population of Gaza are children. That's a million refugees right there many of whom will be radicalised and will form the next generation of Hamas or whatever hydra's head pops up. On the other hand, how can Israel ever be at peace with a group whose stated aim is its extinction? Hamas has to go, there has to be some humanity, and the cycle has to be broken. Not going to happen though is it?  

[Dr Gloom 20115]

47 minutes ago, Rayvin said:

 

What would we do if we were Palestine? I don't understand why this question isn't asked. Imagine we were brutalised under apartheid, with our oppressor frequently and randomly killing our civilians over the years, including 2000 children. What would the British response to that be?

The west has its strategic allies. I’m not going to attempt to defend the hypocrisy. Our policymakers are culpable. We have helped facilitate the blockade and the occupation because we have put no pressure on Israel to act differently. It’s just as appalling as turning a blind eye to what is happening in Yemen because we’re friends with the Saudis. 

Edited October 13, 2023 by Dr Gloom

[Dr Gloom 20115]

5 minutes ago, Renton said:

 

But Hamas are also the government of Gaza aren't they? This is what happens when you get the worst possible representation in your country, on both sides. Sprinkle in years of oppression and desensitisation, a belief in martyrdom and a callous disregard for human life (I mean who cares when you're going to paradise?), all the ingredients for the powder keg are there, just took a match.

 

Those people in South Gaza who need to evacuate, they aren't ever going back, are they? I was reading as well that 50% of the population of Gaza are children. That's a million refugees right there many of whom will be radicalised and will form the next generation of Hamas or whatever hydra's head pops up. On the other hand, how can Israel ever be at peace with a group whose stated aim is its extinction? Hamas has to go, there has to be some humanity, and the cycle has to be broken. Not going to happen though is it?  

well yes and you can criticise Palestinians in Gaza for electing them in the first place but it’s worth noting there have been no elections in Gaza since Hamas were elected so they’re stuck with them.
 

I agree with the rest of your post. Israel can’t negotiate with a terrorist group which rejects  peace and refuses to recognise its existence   

[Renton 18016]

1 minute ago, Dr Gloom said:

well yes and you can criticise Palestinians in Gaza for electing them in the first place but it’s worth noting there have been no elections in Gaza since Hamas were elected so they’re stuck with them.
 

I agree with the rest of your post. Israel can’t negotiate with a terrorist group which rejects  peace and refuses to recognise its existence   

 

Wasn't part of the Saudi accord for them to recognise Israel as a country with a right to exist? I think you mentioned at the start, a possible trigger for this mess. I hope that somehow goes ahead in the not too distant future. 

[Dr Gloom 20115]

32 minutes ago, Renton said:

 

Wasn't part of the Saudi accord for them to recognise Israel as a country with a right to exist? I think you mentioned at the start, a possible trigger for this mess. I hope that somehow goes ahead in the not too distant future. 

 

it's all part of iran's plan. if MBS continues to seek to normalise relations with israel now, he'll be seen as a traitor to the arab world, however if he walks away from the deal with israel, he walks away from a potential defence pact with the US, so it isn't completely dead in the water. biden was hoping to crown his first term with a saudi-israel peace deal

[Renton 18016]

8 minutes ago, Dr Gloom said:

if MBS continues to seek to normalise relations with israel now, he'll be seen as a traitor to the arab world,

 

Would he in Sunni majority countries? Muslim brotherhood, solidarity? I guess yes, probably. Might be okay in the gulf states (although there would be disquiet there including SA, and of course Qatar) but definitely an issue in Egypt and North Africa I would think. So that's a decade of wasted effort then.

And we have Iran on the brink of manufacturing nuclear weapons as well of course. Jesus Christ, this looks grim. 

[Dr Gloom 20115]

27 minutes ago, Renton said:

 

Would he in Sunni majority countries? Muslim brotherhood, solidarity? I guess yes, probably. Might be okay in the gulf states (although there would be disquiet there including SA, and of course Qatar) but definitely an issue in Egypt and North Africa I would think. So that's a decade of wasted effort then.

And we have Iran on the brink of manufacturing nuclear weapons as well of course. Jesus Christ, this looks grim. 

 

yup, and saudi aren't going to let iran get a nuke without developing one of their own, which is just what the world needs. 

Edited October 13, 2023 by Dr Gloom

[Renton 18016]

2 minutes ago, Dr Gloom said:

 

yup, and saudi aren't going to let iran get a nuke without developing one of their own, which is just what the world needs. 

 

I've never heard of a Saudi nuke programme, presumably the US would cover them. But what about Israel?

[Dr Gloom 20115]

1 minute ago, Renton said:

 

I've never heard of a Saudi nuke programme, presumably the US would cover them. But what about Israel?

 

MBS is on record saying if Iran develop a nuclear weapon, Saudi would have to get one too. How they would go about that, I don't know 

[Dazzler 5781]

3 minutes ago, Dr Gloom said:

 

MBS is on record saying if Iran develop a nuclear weapon, Saudi would have to get one too. How they would go about that, I don't know 

 

A quick phone call to Biden I'd be willing to bet.

[Dr Gloom 20115]

fucking hell man this is so grim. IDF ordering 1.1m residents of Gaza city to evacuate. Hamas order them to stay put. Even if they do evacuate, where are they going to go to? Israel certainly aren't letting them in and neither is Egypt. 

 

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2023/oct/13/israel-hamas-war-latest-gaza-residents-told-move-ground-assault

Edited October 13, 2023 by Dr Gloom

[Dr Gloom 20115]

they're basically being instructed to move south: 1.1m homeless at the same time, or stay put while their homes are flattened. 

[Dr Gloom 20115]

i have four cousins living in israel. so far two of their sons and one daughter have been drafted. they're basically children, not much older than my own kids. one of the other daughters, who is too young to have had all her training, will be sent to the navy

[Renton 18016]

48 minutes ago, Dr Gloom said:

fucking hell man this is so grim. IDF ordering 1.1m residents of Gaza city to evacuate. Hamas order them to stay put. Even if they do evacuate, where are they going to go to? Israel certainly aren't letting them in and neither is Egypt. 

 

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2023/oct/13/israel-hamas-war-latest-gaza-residents-told-move-ground-assault

 

Why won't Egypt take them? There is literally nowhere else. 

[PaddockLad 14872]

19 minutes ago, Renton said:

 

Why won't Egypt take them? There is literally nowhere else. 

This is what should’ve been done in the 70s or 80s under a UN mandate. Land should’ve been purchased from Egypt for a new Palestinian homeland.It’s probably the only way of achieving anything approaching “peace”. All it will take is the US to apply some thumbscrews to all those affected. Mossad/IDF can simultaneously take out the leadership of Hamas and Hezbollah without killing 10s of 1000s of Palestinian kids, because if they go ahead with the current plans they’ll ironically be Hamas’s best recruiting tool for the next 50 years of conflict. Pity we’ve got an apparent senile old duffer in the White House. Maybe those around him can grow some balls and do something that will actually help the situation instead of inflaming it. Perhaps Israel need to be told that they can do what they like in Gaza but all (legal) arms sales from the US, GB and EU countries will cease if they carry out this war crime in revenge for what the Israeli people suffered last weekend. And that the US will suspend any other aid to Israel that involves US tax payers money. 
 

The situation needs clear heads, vision, bravery and billions of dollars. Am not holding my breath… 
 

 

Edited October 13, 2023 by PaddockLad

[Renton 18016]

Bit harsh on Biden there. I dread to think what the situation would be like under Trump....

Edited October 13, 2023 by Renton