Rayvin

Is it not still the case though that the economy can and should bounce back from this to pre-2020 levels? This is a sort of controlled/managed drop rather than a complete structural collapse like 2008. In 2008 there was no immediately obvious way to turn the lights back on, this time it should be a case simply of lifting lockdown. Of course, whether Brexit permits any of that to happen is something else entirely.

Yes absolutely, the left has been far too intolerant of opposing views and dialogue for some time. I've fallen foul of it myself. It does sound though from another line she's put in there, that it's more pressure coming from Guardian US than it is from Guardian UK. And the left wing movement in the US over social justice issues is far more highly charged (rightly) than it is here. Another example perhaps of a 'broad church' organisation not really being able to live up to what it claims to.

Thanks for sharing that, it's a fascinating insight. I don't have the highest opinion of Moore, I think she's a thinly veiled misandrist, but it's illuminating how the Guardian has effectively shunted her out over trans rights issues. I'm on the Guardian side of that debate in truth, I think a lot of the pushback from feminists is coming from this idea that trans people are now coming to be seen as more 'hard done by' than women in their eyes - having said that, she absolutely should be able to make her views clear without 300+ colleagues denouncing her ffs. I won't miss her column

Does the Magna Carta have provisions in it for pandemics? This is all presumably coming from this bullshit notion that the Magna Carta is a serviceable substitute for an actual constitution.

I remember a few people saying, some years ago when this was all kicking off, that maybe Brexit is what this country needs to finally move on from the Imperial past and embrace a global future. The failure of it will demonstrate to people how deluded our imperialist mindset is. Brexit is basically the UK's midlife crisis - divorce the wife, lose all the stability but convince yourself that you're going to be free, like how you used to be. The euphoria lasts for a while before you realise that yeah, you're free, but that you lost all that stability, mutual co-operation and support.

I'm not saying that it's significant, I'm merely remarking that it happened. And we appear to be aligned on everything else. EDIT - although I do think he needs to be careful with that 9%. Labour can't afford to lose, frankly, anyone.

Hmm, I didn't view that as religious on our side in any sense. Revenge, war economy, domestic political factors but not defending the faith.

Politically non religious then. The West doesn't fight religious wars anymore is all I meant. Nowadays we just need to brand people terrorists and we can apparently blow up civilians with impunity.

I guess its also likely down to alienation of the left. Fair point ewerk, that would explain the 9 point fall in Labour voters.

Labour have fallen 3 points behind the Tories, Starmer is 1 point behind Johnson, and have fallen 9 points with Labour voters, all since November 5th. If you ask me it's because Labour continue to be a shambles.

I think it depends on how you view the people at the top. I think PL is right in his view because I don't believe, certainly throughout history and maybe even today, that there are any serious "true believers" at the top of religions. There are, however, a lot of tyrannical politicians who surround themselves with wealth and the trappings of power. These people will not have taken anyone to war for the sake of anything other than consolidation of their own power and importance. I'm not sure any other argument makes sense really, I mean there is no justification in the Bible at leas

I thought they already had? The deal is dead isn't it?

Whereas in this country we drop the pretense and literally just elect the devil outright.

Aye, you can tell because they're wearing masks. Can't possibly be actual trumpers.

Perversely he might be worth voting for if it delivers PR. An English Parliament is irrelevant since we'll basically have that soon by default. Apparently support for Welsh independence is now at Scotland 2013 levels. It's going to be the north of England and London alone against the Tories at this rate.

They're just not a broad church anymore, it's too fractured. We need PR to solve this because Labour is incapable. When the left had power the centre was shouting and screaming and now the shoe is on the other foot both ways. You could argue that a unifier, someone palatable to both sides, could maybe restore this. Burnham maybe. Feels like this is now a make or break situation for Starmer even this soon into his leadership - if he can't unify then he needs to purge, if he purges then he'll almost certainly lose next time out. But beyond that, we desperately need PR. And it's worth

Yep, certainly he should have done that before now, not sure how effective it would be with it being left this late. He could come out and call off the hounds I guess with a full apology even if he doesn't think it's right but he's not going to do that and I'm not particularly convinced it would make any difference now, the left is out for blood.

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2020/nov/18/labour-party-divided-corbyn-antisemitism The EHRC found that one of the key ways in which Labour acted unlawfully was by politically interfering in the handling of complaints. Half the party now believes that the original decision to suspend Corbyn amounted to political interference; the other half thinks lifting the suspension was the result of political interference (specifically a “factionally aligned political committee”, according to the Jewish Labour Movement). Either side can marshall convincing arguments, but

Seriously, the Saville line? That's the same shit the right trot out. That is dismal. What a fucking mess this entire thing has become.

It seems Starmer agreed with you. Now the Jewish community can be pissed that Corbyn was reinstated as a member, and the lefties can be pissed that he's still not welcomed back to sit as a Labour MP. Everyone wins! If you're a Tory, at least. He should just have just thrown him out of the party full stop ffs.

I agree, this is just a pointless sideshow now, and cult like attachments to anyone are utterly beside the point of what anyone is trying to achieve here. Corbyn is done, he's never going to come back or have another opportunity, they need to move on and find their next champion.

Clever from Starmer (if indeed he had anything to do with it at all), it'll put a seed of doubt in the minds of the fanatics that maybe their conspiracy theories of purges aren't actually real. Having said that, it's also just an accident waiting to happen on another day now.

And then came out to confirm that actually, that wasn't a concession I doubt he even knows what day of the week it is man. Everyone should just move on without him.

If they did that, they'd still be attacking Labour on Twitter and still just as visible as before. I don't think they're being fair with Starmer, I think it's fairly clear that he's trying to take both sides with him since he'll know the danger of losing the left, but in the end they're now fighting a war for the heart and soul of the party on the same terms that the moderates fought it while Corbyn was in charge. It's petty, damaging, and pointless. As it was when it was happening under Corbyn. As an aside which may give you some encouragement, it appears t