Renton
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Posts
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Joined
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Last visited
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Days Won
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Everything posted by Renton
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Losing 1 nil. Oh dear.
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Okay, I'm officially de-escalting this discussion. Don't make me disagree with you any more, Rayvin.
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Okay, I get you, agree with a lot but not all you've said. Problem with geopolitics is there is no control group, you can never be sure what the best action would have been, even in hindsight. Let's hope for a peaceful outcome for all our sakes.
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I agree but there's always a risk things can escalate out of control should NATO and Russia clash in direct conflict. So if I've got you right here, you wanted NATO to say to Russia, if you invade any more of their sovereign territory we'll respond militarily. You think that would have called Putin's bluff. I don't think it would have. I think it would lead to direct conflict, with unknowable but potentially catastrophic results. As Ukraine are not a NATO member, I'm not wanting to play those odds.
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But you've rightly described Putin as a psychopath. Its a serious risk imo.
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I can't see what they're saying other nations, including the UK and US, have already said?
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But we are where we are. This thread is about Biden, why are you blaming him for shit that has happened over decades. The danger of nuclear weapons is that they could be used as escalation from conventional warfare. In a conventional square go between Russia and the US, Russia would be annihilated and may feel their only option to save face is to use tactical nukes.
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What gets me is that the government have successfully conned a lot of the public into believing we have had a "good" pandemic. We've had a disastrous pandemic by any metric be that health, emotional, or economic. They've used it to financially enrich themselves and their mates, and to further increase the desperate inequalities facing this country. And they're still doing it now. Absolute shower of cunts.
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We're going round in circles a bit here. The West never said we'd intervene other than with sanctions. That's what we are doing. Do you want us to fight him militarily, yes or no? You know, sometimes there are no good options, just less bad ones. I think that's where we are at.
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Well, not really. What bluff has he called? He was threatened with sanctions, he'll get sanctions. Nord Stream 2 will be cut off. We are doing what we said we would do.
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I'll be honest, you caught me off guard with North Macedonia, I barely knew of its existence. In reality, I think we'd fight a conventional war for any NATO member, we'd have to. Most at threat are the Baltic states and Poland. That's where I hope the red line is not tested.
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Historically psychopathic dictators didn't have nuclear weapons either. Can you see how this changes things? A world war as we have known it isn't possible now.
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I'd rather not, but ultimately yes I guess. [looks up where it is on a map\] I believe in a rule based world hierarchy and thems the rules.
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I agree entirely with your Roddenberryesque view of the future, but you're naïve if you don't realise this will take Millenia, let alone centuries. And it has to come from within countries themselves, surely you can see an EU with a Putin led Russia in it would cease to be what you want it to be? I hate what has happening to Ukraine, but they will have to find their own way. Ukraine ultimately wasn't the red line for us, that is EU and NATO allies. I don't want to die in a nuclear war because of Ukraine.
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Well so far the huge expansion of Russia amounts to 3 small parts of Ukraine. He might take the whole of Ukraine, but I doubt it, because it will be an ongoing blood bath for him. We'll see. So I'd say in the 70 years since WW2 that was pretty good going, NATO has been a huge success. And personally, I'd be more keen on expelling the likes of Orban from the EU rather than inviting fellow dictators and psychopaths into it to take it out from its heart. I'm somewhat amazed by your attitude here tbh.
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We've done diplomacy. We've done and are doing sanctions. What else is there other than military? You say we haven't done enough diplomacy or sanctions, whilst at the same time admitting Putin is a psychopath. You also want ot invite Putin into the EU. You're all over the place here.
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Yes. Of course that's the case, it's a defensive organisation. You need the UN for other disputes.
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Using military force beyond our borders has been a disaster EVERY SINGLE TIME. Let alone against a nuclear super power.
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Sanctions have and will bite. Russia has 3 times the population of the UK but significantly less GDP, partly because of sanctions. It has two things going for it. The world's biggest nuclear arsenal and large energy reserves. Nowt we can do about the former which is a real problem. The latter we can diversify our energy needs and it stops being leverage. Will take a couple more decades though.
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I assume you know the EU has strict entry requirements particularly around democracy and human rights. I'm sure similar caveats apply to NATO (although Turkey is in NATO so probably not). Also the raisin detre for NATO is to defend against Russia! If Russia wants to join the west, it needs to change, not us. Accepting Russia and Putin into our political, military, and economic systems is the definition of appeasement
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Wait, Putin asked to join NATO? Really? You rhino the EU should accept a country as corrupt as Russia, really? Howay man. Anyway it seems to me he is attempting to rebuild the soviet empire. And your only counteroffer to what we did is "do diplomacy better"? Can you be more specific? Dealing with dictators is always hard and escalating things to physical wars, which strikes me was the only option here after diplomacy failed, is usually disastrous. But NATO's function is essentially to protect Western Europe. I'm confident they will do this.
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So the consensus here is that NATO should have proactively defended an ex-soviet state? I disagree, I think we're handling this in the right way. Hit Russia with more sanctions, encourage and supply an insurrection, and find alternative supply chains to Russian commodities and energy, which will clearly take time. I'd add that comparisons with WW2 in a post-nuclear world are bogus imo.
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Whats he won? Domestic power to extend his dictatorship? Probably. What else? Putin needs the money from his exported gas as much as we need it. Russia hurts far more from sanctions than the west does, much like the UK did with Brexit. And every year we wean ourselves off his gas and oil he gets weaker. Russia would be a joke were it not for its nuclear armanents.
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I was going through my childhood stuff this weekend at my mum's and found a Phillip's Atlas I used to love browsing as a kid, copyrighted 1978. Looking at the political map of Europe, I was interested that Ukraine was the same colour as Russia with only the slightest demarcation lines. The Ukraine was a fully fledged part of the USSR proper in contrast to satellite states like Poland. Point is its different to the NATO countries for important historical and geographical reasons. The situation is complicated but to suggest any of the blame lies with NATO or the EU is nonsense. In fact, the fact Russia arent knocking on the door of Poland or the Baltic states is proof in itself NATO works. Give your head a shake.
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It's a military deterrent for its members. If Lithuania or Finland is attacked, we go to war. Not for the Ukraine though. Or Ireland for that matter @ewerk.
