manc-mag

Well a blind man on a galloping horse could have seen that one coming.

Belated birthday bumps, Antoine!

In any terms you can define that is a gloat that we didn't finish in the top 10. its telling the likes of you that you are wrong, but don't mistake it to confuse your little brain that I would rather finish where we did under the Halls and Shepherd and play in europe again. If dickheads didn't continue to spout shite like you are doing, and moving the goalposts, there would be no need for me to keep commenting either. People like you would come out of this better, if you all just admitted you were wrong for thinking anyone would be better, especially the hypocrites who have stopped going to games yet are still giving their man vocal backing [but not financial backing anymore, because the attraction has declined] I'm quoting facts. Where is Mad Jock ? Hold his hands up and admit he was spouting shite ? It isn't difficult. As I said a couple of pages ago I never thought about wanting the Halls or Shepherd to go - you keep inventing this movement to justify your garbage but it doesn't mean anything to me in terms of admitting I was wrong - how could I be when I never took that position? Your shite about Ashley "serving us right" as if anybody who did want them out is somehow to blame for the current situation is fucking sickening as well - as I said he's here because the Halls cut and ran. I don't give Ashley any kind of backing at all - stating the fact that nearly every PL club is now underwritten by owner loans - along with bemoaning it in several posts - is just arguing that your old school ideas about club size and turnover equating to spending power and ambition are dead. What I want is a better owner than Ashley willing to put money in but with the ambition of the previous lot - I'm sure that's something we could actually agree on. One thing I will make clear - you may or may not have said this at the time, I don't know, but lots of others did, on all the message boards, and you certainly appear to be agreeing with their moving of the goalposts. Nobody, not one single person, who wanted "anybody but Fred", gave any reason regarding the forecast that a few clubs would be taken over by rich benefactors, especially clubs like Bolton and Birmingham which for some reason only they themselves know, has somehow impacted on NUFC that we have became a selling club again. The wanted him out because he "embarrassed them", along with the Halls took a meagre amount of money in dividends which had no impact on anything, bought trophy players, rented a warehouse, and they thought "anyone would do better" in terms of using the revenues better [even though it was the Halls and Shepherd who built them up in the first place] and took the ambition for granted. How many times do I have to say this. Stop moving the goalposts or backing those who are moving the goalposts because they can't hold their hands up and admit they got it massively wrong, allowing their hatred to get in the way of rational judgement and appreciation of the club becoming one of the biggest in the country and attempting to maximise the potential it has. This is the truth. Leazes, can I make a helpful suggestion? When you accuse individuals (such as NJS etc) of expressing the opinions above, perhaps the reason that they don't recognise themselves in the views attributed to them is because the profile you keep repeating ad nauseum (the bit in bold to be precise) is a composite of views expressed randomly and at different points in time across all of the message boards you trawl, which must include several thousand members. Not because they're lying or "moving the goalposts" etc etc. Which fictional everyman do you need to hold their hands up and say they were "wrong" for you to feel that you can move on over this? It's utterly futile tbh. Genuinely, that's not a dig, I just think a lot of this is basically obsessive behaviour however the argument is re-branded or differently nuanced in order to try to keep the 'debate' alive.

They hardly needed a black band that wide, a postage stamp would have done the job quite adequately the beady eyed little fucker. Incidentally Fergie ought to be more worried about who's shagging his former daughter-in-law and I've got that on good authority from someone who knows her personally.

I think that misses the point tbh, because as you rightly say, we shouldn't be measuring ourselves by the standards of Boro, Birmingham or Leicester-we're Newcastle United. If they had easier opposition on the day then thats random and beyond their control. We on the other hand should be prepared to measure ourselves against the likes of Arsenal and Man U (our opponents) and beat them. Again I don't think there's much point in dwelling on the individual games because I'm trying to make a more general point (see my latter remarks about our games away vs Man U over the entire history of the Premiership, where the point is far more cogent), but even if we look at those two finals, not only did we not win, but as per the actual wording of my point, we didn't even compete if we're totally honest. And that's all I'm saying really. Not really embarking on an argument because I can honestly say I've put all that behind me now, I just think if you take anything other than a moderate position this long after the event it's a bit crazy. Yes it's with hindsight-but after all they say hindsight is a benefit. So we have that benefit now to reflect upon it. And that's how I see it. And as I've said it's entirely without reference to the fat cockney barrow boy because they are stand alone points as NJS has rightly pointed out. my point is, and always has been, that relatively we were the 5th most qualified team for europe, had the 5th highest league position, the only 4 clubs to do better in both this criteria being the same 4 clubs, expanded the ground and transformed the club from a selling club with one foot in the 3rd division to one of the biggest clubs in the country and europe. The best board to have ran the club in half a century, at least. That remains. The likes of yourself, NJS, TP, or any halfwit on skunkers or NO can bleat all they like about their irrational "opinions" but these are the basic facts. Not to be sneezed at. There can only be one number 1, it wasn't us, but nobody else has got near what they did and it may be a long time before anybody else does, its a shame people can't accept it and put their hatred to one side and base their "likes" on those who do well for the club, which is what counts. We all have our theories on why those players played poorly in those 2 Cup Finals, or why the managers played weakened teams in the League Cup, or why we didn't win the title when we had a big league, but none of those can be attributed to the board. The players were good enough, the managers had the pedigree and the experience of having been there before [apart from Keegan], so if you want to attach any "blame" then it has to be there. To decry it however, in view of what came before, and what has came after, only shows what halfwits and idiots have short memories and how they had raised expectations. Anyway. If anybody can produce some facts to disprove they weren't the best board at the club for half a century by miles, post them up and let us all have a look. I think that prevents you from addressing opposing points as they're actually made though. You think any criticism is due to hatred (which is just not the case) and as a result your counter argument gets overly emotive. Again I said it was without reference to the current regime so the comparison with them (or any other board of the last 50 years) is not relevant. That's old ground though, you'll quote that however the point is worded so I won't attempt to re-word it in the expectation you'll afford me its true (literal) meaning. I'm not disputing any of the 5th place claims just for the avoidance of doubt. it isn't emotive at all. It's factual. They have all had the same club, same fanbase, same opportunities to capitalise, and they have done the best by miles. Mike Ashley is making a right dogs dinner of it, just like McKeag, Seymour etc They did aye, and for completeness, I also think they got out at the best possible time too.

Seriously, their lasses must've watched that and just been cringing.

I think that misses the point tbh, because as you rightly say, we shouldn't be measuring ourselves by the standards of Boro, Birmingham or Leicester-we're Newcastle United. If they had easier opposition on the day then thats random and beyond their control. We on the other hand should be prepared to measure ourselves against the likes of Arsenal and Man U (our opponents) and beat them. Again I don't think there's much point in dwelling on the individual games because I'm trying to make a more general point (see my latter remarks about our games away vs Man U over the entire history of the Premiership, where the point is far more cogent), but even if we look at those two finals, not only did we not win, but as per the actual wording of my point, we didn't even compete if we're totally honest. And that's all I'm saying really. Not really embarking on an argument because I can honestly say I've put all that behind me now, I just think if you take anything other than a moderate position this long after the event it's a bit crazy. Yes it's with hindsight-but after all they say hindsight is a benefit. So we have that benefit now to reflect upon it. And that's how I see it. And as I've said it's entirely without reference to the fat cockney barrow boy because they are stand alone points as NJS has rightly pointed out. my point is, and always has been, that relatively we were the 5th most qualified team for europe, had the 5th highest league position, the only 4 clubs to do better in both this criteria being the same 4 clubs, expanded the ground and transformed the club from a selling club with one foot in the 3rd division to one of the biggest clubs in the country and europe. The best board to have ran the club in half a century, at least. That remains. The likes of yourself, NJS, TP, or any halfwit on skunkers or NO can bleat all they like about their irrational "opinions" but these are the basic facts. Not to be sneezed at. There can only be one number 1, it wasn't us, but nobody else has got near what they did and it may be a long time before anybody else does, its a shame people can't accept it and put their hatred to one side and base their "likes" on those who do well for the club, which is what counts. We all have our theories on why those players played poorly in those 2 Cup Finals, or why the managers played weakened teams in the League Cup, or why we didn't win the title when we had a big league, but none of those can be attributed to the board. The players were good enough, the managers had the pedigree and the experience of having been there before [apart from Keegan], so if you want to attach any "blame" then it has to be there. To decry it however, in view of what came before, and what has came after, only shows what halfwits and idiots have short memories and how they had raised expectations. Anyway. If anybody can produce some facts to disprove they weren't the best board at the club for half a century by miles, post them up and let us all have a look. I think that prevents you from addressing opposing points as they're actually made though. You think any criticism is due to hatred (which is just not the case) and as a result your counter argument gets overly emotive. Again I said it was without reference to the current regime so the comparison with them (or any other board of the last 50 years) is not relevant. That's old ground though, you'll quote that however the point is worded so I won't attempt to re-word it in the expectation you'll afford me its true (literal) meaning. I'm not disputing any of the 5th place claims just for the avoidance of doubt.

Yeah they are but they're all trophies at the end of the day. Anyway as I said, my point was a broader one; the away record against the top teams over the history of the Prem is the key indicator for me of how close we were to rivalling them over the period that's consistently referred to.

I think that misses the point tbh, because as you rightly say, we shouldn't be measuring ourselves by the standards of Boro, Birmingham or Leicester-we're Newcastle United. If they had easier opposition on the day then thats random and beyond their control. We on the other hand should be prepared to measure ourselves against the likes of Arsenal and Man U (our opponents) and beat them. Again I don't think there's much point in dwelling on the individual games because I'm trying to make a more general point (see my latter remarks about our games away vs Man U over the entire history of the Premiership, where the point is far more cogent), but even if we look at those two finals, not only did we not win, but as per the actual wording of my point, we didn't even compete if we're totally honest. And that's all I'm saying really. Not really embarking on an argument because I can honestly say I've put all that behind me now, I just think if you take anything other than a moderate position this long after the event it's a bit crazy. Yes it's with hindsight-but after all they say hindsight is a benefit. So we have that benefit now to reflect upon it. And that's how I see it. And as I've said it's entirely without reference to the fat cockney barrow boy because they are stand alone points as NJS has rightly pointed out.

In all seriousness though, despite our obvious higher finishes during the Shepherd/Shepherd Hall era, look at our record away from home at the clubs that actually win. I think Man U might be 3 points in nigh on 20 years (all draws). Liverpool one win (iirc) our first season up. Chelsea I genuinely dont know although it's not been much since they joined the current 'elite', Arsenal must be the best I'm guessing with a couple of wins but they've become notoriously soft the last few years. Yes we were finishing above the likes of Bolton etc and I take no satisfaction that we're not doing so currently, but then the players we had back then should have been easing past those teams in second gear. Invariably though they didn't play in fifth gear when the chips were down against players of the same calibre and the only difference was mentality and desire. That statistic for me always keeps some of the bolder halcyon claims in check. The reality is we very rarely went to the top teams and gave them a game even when we had top rated players. So yes we got to the top of the second tier pack but we should have done better (and really quite a lot better) given our spending and the 'names' coming in. Just my opinion.

The drummer felt the same way I heard.

Fucking brilliant stuff.

Oh and by the way, thats not a defence of Ashley by implication. I would say the club has probably never done that in my lifetime at all. Ashley leads by horrific example with his contempt for any number of things that are important to the progress of the club, I simply think he's getting more out of this particular body of players (relatively speaking) by employing margin squeezing tactics that leave less room for the decadence that was prevalent in the past. Not that that's a long term/sophisticated enough strategy for success by itself.

See, the only way you can avoid the question is by bringing Ashley into it. My point is if you call yourself a big boy and want to be counted among them then you can be judged by their standards. As it happens the judgment from their point of view is exactly the same under either owner - failure - and the teams you mention would be how they've always seen us and always will -except for Blackburn of course - they did win it. Why should they care that we think we should be up there with them or who our owner is and how much he cares? - all that matters to them is proven success - as I said same under anyone. because the change in ownership is a dividing line, don't you get this ? I changed my answer, as I misread it. Are you saying we may as well finish 5th bottom as 5th top then, or 4th bottom as 4th top, or 3rd bottom as 3rd top ? Astonishing, if you are. My view is that they don't care who the owner is - only whether we've won anything. I want to finish as high as possible and give all the cups our best - even if Europe wasn't available that would still be my view - but you have to realise that if by some miracle we did get back up there to compete with the top teams then we would have to start seeing 3rd as failure like Arsenal this year - with higher ambitions comes higher targets - and higher standards of failure. Maybe that's why there was such a reaction to finishing 5th that time - we'd started to think like Manc/scousers. I overheard a Spurs fan on the train this morning bemoaning a shit season as finishing 6th was "mid-table" as far as he's concerned - maybe that's the attitude you need to be winners. you're getting warmer, you're starting to understand the concept of actually attempting to be successful and raising expectations that come with it. You now only have to understand that this is only done by keeping your best players and maybe buying the odd top player/"trophy player" to attempt to continue the upward trend, both in terms of ability of the team and profile within the game and outside the game commercially. I think buying top bracket players who genuinely don't want/care whether they win anything once they get here is very much a job half done and it's ultimately that that meant we wont nowt. And I'll always have trouble with that aspect of it. I think it was true of all but a couple of seasons (and possibly only one when we really had the tilt at the title). The two cup finals were no shows and we were there solely to make up the numbers if we're brutally honest about it. That's not a childish reaction to not winning something but a genuine appraisal of why we didnt - for instance the Champs League was a different kettle of fish as winning that isn't really that realistic unless and until you become a mainstay of the competition as the learning curve is so immense. But for me I have to subscribe to what NJS touches on there as I've said in the past. It's the 'second is nowhere' mentality (whether you finish first or not) that makes the difference. Equally I accept that the first trophy is always the hardest (a totally valid point), it's just I don't think the club demanded enough of it's servants once it'd got them on the payroll to ever meet that threshold. And by and large they responded like most employees do when their wages are paid irrespective. The frustrating thing is that that element of the equation-demanding a winning mentality-costs nowt. It's just something that has to run through the club from top to bottom day after day, relentlessly. Starting at the top.

meh, I'm going to go back with different mates. Ones who don't try to rub lotion on me. unless they look like the lass with "Fluck Me" eyes... "It rubs the lotion on it's skin or else Dave gets the hose again" *sat with cock in his hand*

Aye, spill the beans you fat homo.

Is Villa one of them? I.e. was he the bloke Nigel Spink replaced? Correct. Apparently only Spink's second game or summat btw. Aye, he was really young (19 or something) and played a blinder. No idea who the other team is like. Is it Man U? He started there but no idea if he played a part in the '68 final or not. It was, aye. A gold star for your efforts, Kenneth!* *(gold star immediately rescinded for ignoring my post, however)

Is Villa one of them? I.e. was he the bloke Nigel Spink replaced? Correct. Apparently only Spink's second game or summat btw. Aye, he was really young (19 or something) and played a blinder. No idea who the other team is like. Sub for Man U (1968 Final). I can't get my head around there only being 12 years between those finals. 12 years ago from now is 1999, but 12 years between 1968 and 1980 looks more like it was 50 years.

Was hoping Rob W might know given that he kicked the game off wearing a stove pipe hat.

Is Villa one of them? I.e. was he the bloke Nigel Spink replaced? Correct. Apparently only Spink's second game or summat btw.

Goalkeeper Jimmy Rimmer has 2 European Cup medals with two different English clubs having played only 6 minutes of European finals. Name the clubs tbf.

Aye but that ball was on from the start of the match and it was a World Cup semi! I'd love it if that was the answer like, just pure amateurism and they'd run out of adidas balls. Mind you they managed to find one for the final. I was wondering whether it was cos they were two European teams and they'd possibly opted for a ball they normally played with in Europe? No idea ultimately mind. And as you imply, like shite would it be allowed these days whatever the reason.

Was watching the "Match of the Century" on youtube recently (Italy v West Germany 1970 semi final) and what I want to know is why are they playing with a white ball when it was the iconic world cup of: The Telstar ball. Evidence here: I don't know the answer to this by the way so sensible answers only because it's narking the fuck out of me. Also, was there a flower bed running all way round the perimeter of the Azteca or are my eyes deceiving me?

Former European player of the year iirc or did I make that up?

He had the odd game where he was mint though. Portsmouth home, and Derby away spring to mind when we won 2-1. * we sang ooh ahh Franzie Carr, before Cantona had even signed for t'Leeds. He had a couple of good games for us aye but I cant see how that would have translated to Serie A form. The rags had it for "Ooh Aah Paul McGrath" originally btw. I thought it was Villa who sang that, and was it not on the back of some 1991 hip hop track. He was away from Man Utd by then. Nah it was Man U much as it pains me to give them the credit for anything. I must have missed the hip hop track completely mind. Unless you're thinking of 'Oops upside your head' which must've been the late 70's rather than 1991