NJS

Of course - but in the absence of any money, realism bites. That's the future - what we're discussing here is a "judgement" on the past - as I said I think "failure" is correct from the "standards" we all actually aspire to. standards. Have fallen, under the new regime. That's the WHOLE point. Don't you see it ? Of course - but by Man Utd's standards we never reached the top so what does it matter? (from their pov)

No different from their viewpoint - that's the point. As for your quote, finishing in the top 10 given that no money will be spent is realistic from their point of view. You've written off 4 teams, I'd extend that to 6 so a margin of 7th to 10th isn't that huge. Of course we all want to aim higher and achieve it but as in everything in life there is a cost for that - Ashley won't pay the cost so I don't see the point in the bravado of saying we want higher.

Of course - but in the absence of any money, realism bites. That's the future - what we're discussing here is a "judgement" on the past - as I said I think "failure" is correct from the standards we all actually aspire to.

They may respect us as fans and think the club is big but the bottom line is still silverware. As I said by ours and all other clubs standards we were great, by the clubs who we both want to be counted as part of we weren't. see my next post. I think you are clutching at straws to attempt to say that finishing 3rd top is just as much a failure as 3rd bottom. Ridiculous. The irony being, if we finish 10th under this current owner, people like you will be doing cartwheels and saying "I told you so" etc. Told us what ? "Second is nowhere" - Bill Shankly - harsh and I don't particularly agree but that's the attitude that people like him and Ferguson had/have.

See, the only way you can avoid the question is by bringing Ashley into it. My point is if you call yourself a big boy and want to be counted among them then you can be judged by their standards. As it happens the judgment from their point of view is exactly the same under either owner - failure - and the teams you mention would be how they've always seen us and always will -except for Blackburn of course - they did win it. Why should they care that we think we should be up there with them or who our owner is and how much he cares? - all that matters to them is proven success - as I said same under anyone. because the change in ownership is a dividing line, don't you get this ? I changed my answer, as I misread it. Are you saying we may as well finish 5th bottom as 5th top then, or 4th bottom as 4th top, or 3rd bottom as 3rd top ? Astonishing, if you are. My view is that they don't care who the owner is - only whether we've won anything. I want to finish as high as possible and give all the cups our best - even if Europe wasn't available that would still be my view - but you have to realise that if by some miracle we did get back up there to compete with the top teams then we would have to start seeing 3rd as failure like Arsenal this year - with higher ambitions comes higher targets - and higher standards of failure. Maybe that's why there was such a reaction to finishing 5th that time - we'd started to think like Manc/scousers. I overheard a Spurs fan on the train this morning bemoaning a shit season as finishing 6th was "mid-table" as far as he's concerned - maybe that's the attitude you need to be winners.

They may respect us as fans and think the club is big but the bottom line is still silverware. As I said by ours and all other clubs standards we were great, by the clubs who we both want to be counted as part of we weren't.

See, the only way you can avoid the question is by bringing Ashley into it. My point is if you call yourself a big boy and want to be counted among them then you can be judged by their standards. As it happens the judgment from their point of view is exactly the same under either owner - failure - and the teams you mention would be how they've always seen us and always will -except for Blackburn of course - they did win it. Why should they care that we think we should be up there with them or who our owner is and how much he cares? - all that matters to them is proven success - as I said same under anyone.

you're applying different standards and expectations to the Halls and Shepherd than Ashley then ? Precisely my point. Would Shearer leave for ManU now ? Probably. I'm not really surprised, as you actually asked what they had done for the long term future of the club.....astonishing. Nothing to do with Ashley whatsoever and I wish you'd realise we can discuss the previous period in isolation. My point is that if we did join the elite in that period which is a view I'm inclined to support, by their standards winning no trophies makes us failures. By the standards of plucky outsiders we succeeded. Both views are valid imo. I DO discuss previous periods and the current one in isolation. I criticise Ashley, deservedly and justly as he has taken the club into decline, and I don't have to mention the last owners, but somebody else does. People are entitled to their views, but I don't understand how anybody can say Keegan "failed", they sound like Ken fuckin Bates when they come out with tripe like that. If you asked a Man Utd or Chelsea fan in 2007 whether Newcastle had been successful since promotion what would their pefectly valid answer from their viewpoint been? Again no comaprison to Ashley asked for or required.

you're applying different standards and expectations to the Halls and Shepherd than Ashley then ? Precisely my point. Would Shearer leave for ManU now ? Probably. I'm not really surprised, as you actually asked what they had done for the long term future of the club.....astonishing. Nothing to do with Ashley whatsoever and I wish you'd realise we can discuss the previous period in isolation. My point is that if we did join the elite in that period which is a view I'm inclined to support, by their standards winning no trophies makes us failures. By the standards of plucky outsiders we succeeded. Both views are valid imo.

TBF from the perspective of NUFC fans, those years were fantastic. However if you want to be considered a top club and count Man U as our rivals as you've suggested then you have to admit by their standards and 3 or 4 other clubs, they can be dismissed as a failure in absolute terms. Obviously relative to the previous decades they weren't. When Man U sing about Shearer turning them down and winning fuck all they are being cunts but at the same time they're right.

They've announced today that next years will be on a premier fixture day as well - to allow a longer break for the Euro champs. I haven't sat down and watched a cup final since the two we lost - used to love it before that.

When we went to the US for the games in 2000 we drove from Washington to Columbus and the rock/indie radio stations had Higher and Arms Wide Open on constantly which got under the skin a bit to the point I bought that album and though I haven't listened to it for ages I did think it was pretty good.

I'd never seen her mother before but had always she did look a bit like her Dad so I sort of assumed he was thinner as a young man and probably not bad looking for a bloke. The Viz did a borderline bolier type feature with "birds who look off-puttingly like their Dads" which featured both Nigella and Angelina Jolie - it took me till seeing her in Tomb Raider to really get over thinking they were far too right for the latter.

One thing I would point out is the idea that the mortgage would be paid off as it was secured against ST receipts going forward should not be considered that much "good business". When the mortgage was taken out once the expansion was done I think we had 41k ST holders paying top whack ( I remember mine peaking at £643). Now presuming that that income would be constant over 15 years both in football and bigger picture terms (ie assuming no economic downturn in the NE which is always vulnerable) shows a great deal of confidence which I'm sure LM will back up by saying they'd had 12 years of sell outs so another 15 years wouldn't be a problem. I have my doubts that that 15 years was that clever - and I think predictions of falling ST sales suggesting the need for re-financing could be one of the reasons the Halls started to look for a get out.

Isn't the real answer that Shepherd would have used the Carroll money to pay off the mortgage?

http://www.bbc.co.uk/history/domesday/dblo...-564000/page/19 Broken Britain The sale/closure of Frankies is a huge story in ST history - akin to the fall of the Berlin wall.

The quiz programme used the intro from A Forest by The Cure as its signature and main music effect - and I think the prize was a copy of the laserdiscs.

I saw the end of Nickleback's set at V about 6 years ago and he did give an amusing illustration of what was at the time one hit wonder syndrome when at the end of the set he introduced their first big song whose name escapes me with the comment "Right, lets do this shit and then we can go and get drunk".

The stock argument against those who said it was wrong to prop up the steel or mining industries that Farming was/is massively subsidised has now been hit out of the galaxy by the banking bailout.

One of the worst legacies of the Thatcher/Blair years is that the UK seems to have embraced American attitudes to society and economics. The worship of greed and the rich and the so called American dream is very much Thatcher's ethos complete with the increased disparity of rich and poor in both countries. Those who always cry "changes had to be made" when supporting the erosion of union power never think about the downside of the promotion of shit, temporary jobs in the pursuit of a "business friendly" market which does so much damage in the long run. They also have no asnswer to the argument that France and Germany as you say have emerged from the 30 years of "there is no alternative" Thatcherite economics in the UK with stronger economies despite the unions and with "traditional" industries still flourishing and this in France's case despite a very socialist welfare state. Instead of the admiration of American business practices we'd be better off looking to Europe.

Pele played for Santos in a friendly in the 70s I think.

Blasted it with the steam jets from the iron - seems to be doing the trick.

Got an interview tomorrow and have noticed my suit jacket looks a tad shabby. Need quick advice for removal of: Dust/lint (No K-Tel or Ronco devices available) Stains which are probably hair wax (yes I am slightly gay that way) Tried using wet bog roll but disaster almost ensued - started to break down and stick to material making it worse.

I know its not necessarily a popular view but I think the hierachacal level of English/Scottish/Welsh/Ulsterman is too fine or narrow - I understand the desire for a certain level of identity but think a regional identity (like Geordie for example) within a larger union is the correct level. I think "British" is that right level for the union rather than the narrower one. The shared level of culture at that level with individual variation within that is pretty strong.

Haven't seen the figure but they've been claiming for the past few years to be a net contributor tax wise.