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I wouldn't be complaining because I'd realise it was for the good of the club, I'm not sure how it was clear the club tried to sell Owen? the Milner money was just to good to turn down and Keegan was happy with that (or he claimed he was) on the understanding that he would be replaced, now the club was rejected by Schweinsteiger on the last day (according to Jimenez's associate on N-O) which is unfortunate but it would have meant getting someone else in in January, nothing wrong with that and I can't see why keegan would have a problem with it either since he faced the same situation when he sold Andy Cole.

 

Wise isn't someone I'd have chosen but I can't knock the players he's brought in with the help of Jimenez and Vetere, would Keegan have done better with a similar budget? I'd say he'd have no chance.

 

 

 

How would it been to the good of the club to have the same squad we have now, only without Owen or Barton - which is exactly where we'd be with the Wise Transfer Policy™ had everything gone to his plan.

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would Keegan have done better with a similar budget? I'd say he'd have no chance.

 

I fundamentally disagree.

 

 

Keegan's record last time around shows that.

 

So Keegan would have bought better than what we've got with a net spend of £0?

 

I think so - but the size of the budget is another bug bear.

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would Keegan have done better with a similar budget? I'd say he'd have no chance.

 

I fundamentally disagree.

 

 

Keegan's record last time around shows that.

 

So Keegan would have bought better than what we've got with a net spend of £0?

 

The question is where are we going to end up with a net negative spend - besides Ashley another champagne party or 10.

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See what I mean man?

He's wrong for trying to make it work then he's wrong for walking out after he was completely undermined.

 

If you're not happy with the set up then walk away, don't lie to everyone that it's alright until the window closes and then walk which is the worst possible time.

 

 

If he did that then people like you would STILL complain about it. :snakehips:

 

Beside it was clearly Milner and the Barton + Owen attempted sale that broke the camels back.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Honestly how can you support Wise as DoF? Especially as if Keegan has his way we'd currently have a stronger squad?

 

I wouldn't be complaining because I'd realise it was for the good of the club, I'm not sure how it was clear the club tried to sell Owen? the Milner money was just to good to turn down and Keegan was happy with that (or he claimed he was) on the understanding that he would be replaced, now the club was rejected by Schweinsteiger on the last day (according to Jimenez's associate on N-O) which is unfortunate but it would have meant getting someone else in in January, nothing wrong with that and I can't see why keegan would have a problem with it either since he faced the same situation when he sold Andy Cole.

 

Wise isn't someone I'd have chosen but I can't knock the players he's brought in with the help of Jimenez and Vetere, would Keegan have done better with a similar budget? I'd say he'd have no chance.

Aye, but we didn't fucking get Schweinstiger, did we? That's the problem. Milner was sold and not replaced. And unlike the Andy Cole situation we've got a tiny squad, lacking in quality. Selling Cole then meant missing out on the Uefa Cup and came 6th. The size of the squad now leaves us in precarious situation. So does the smaller transfer window and the restrictions that causes.

Also, I think it's clear that something was going on with Owen to the extent that the club felt they had to announce he'd been offered a new improved deal. There was a rabbit off there as well.

And you say 'would Keegan have done better with a similar sized budget?' Isn't the budget one of the major problems here? No one was expecting us to go beserk with new players but the budget we had wasn’t adequate. I know, it’s all part of the ‘strategy’.

 

Just what I thought at the time.

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See what I mean man?

He's wrong for trying to make it work then he's wrong for walking out after he was completely undermined.

 

If you're not happy with the set up then walk away, don't lie to everyone that it's alright until the window closes and then walk which is the worst possible time.

 

 

If he did that then people like you would STILL complain about it. :snakehips:

 

Beside it was clearly Milner and the Barton + Owen attempted sale that broke the camels back.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Honestly how can you support Wise as DoF? Especially as if Keegan has his way we'd currently have a stronger squad?

 

I wouldn't be complaining because I'd realise it was for the good of the club, I'm not sure how it was clear the club tried to sell Owen? the Milner money was just to good to turn down and Keegan was happy with that (or he claimed he was) on the understanding that he would be replaced, now the club was rejected by Schweinsteiger on the last day (according to Jimenez's associate on N-O) which is unfortunate but it would have meant getting someone else in in January, nothing wrong with that and I can't see why keegan would have a problem with it either since he faced the same situation when he sold Andy Cole.

 

Wise isn't someone I'd have chosen but I can't knock the players he's brought in with the help of Jimenez and Vetere, would Keegan have done better with a similar budget? I'd say he'd have no chance.

Aye, but we didn't fucking get Schweinstiger, did we? That's the problem. Milner was sold and not replaced. And unlike the Andy Cole situation we've got a tiny squad, lacking in quality. Selling Cole then meant missing out on the Uefa Cup and came 6th. The size of the squad now leaves us in precarious situation. So does the smaller transfer window and the restrictions that causes.

Also, I think it's clear that something was going on with Owen to the extent that the club felt they had to announce he'd been offered a new improved deal. There was a rabbit off there as well.

And you say 'would Keegan have done better with a similar sized budget?' Isn't the budget one of the major problems here? No one was expecting us to go beserk with new players but the budget we had wasn’t adequate. I know, it’s all part of the ‘strategy’.

 

I think you need to calm down lad.

 

it was a problem we missed out on Schweinstiger but not the end of the World as long as we get a replacement in in January, you say about us having a tiny squad being the difference between now and when we sold Cole yet we've got Jonas, N'Zogbia, Geremi and Duff as wide men, how many strikers did we have when Cole was sold? Beardsley, Kitson and?

 

As for Owen, I don't think it was clear something was going at all, you're just putting 2 and 2 together because we released a statement saying Milner had put in a transfer request and was sold shortly afterwards.

 

The budget was small and I had hoped for better but if the money isn't there then what do you think the club should do?

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I wouldn't be complaining because I'd realise it was for the good of the club, I'm not sure how it was clear the club tried to sell Owen? the Milner money was just to good to turn down and Keegan was happy with that (or he claimed he was) on the understanding that he would be replaced, now the club was rejected by Schweinsteiger on the last day (according to Jimenez's associate on N-O) which is unfortunate but it would have meant getting someone else in in January, nothing wrong with that and I can't see why keegan would have a problem with it either since he faced the same situation when he sold Andy Cole.

 

Wise isn't someone I'd have chosen but I can't knock the players he's brought in with the help of Jimenez and Vetere, would Keegan have done better with a similar budget? I'd say he'd have no chance.

 

 

 

How would it been to the good of the club to have the same squad we have now, only without Owen or Barton - which is exactly where we'd be with the Wise Transfer Policy™ had everything gone to his plan.

 

You're reading too much into things regarding Owen, as for Barton, he's an embarrassment to the club and the majority wanted him kicked out, the club went out and signed Gonzalas and since Barton looked like facing a massive ban then I don't see anything wrong with trying to get money for him when we had the chance.

 

It's not as if people expected him to play much between now and January anyway.

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Wise isn't someone I'd have chosen but I can't knock the players he's brought in with the help of Jimenez and Vetere, would Keegan have done better with a similar budget? I'd say he'd have no chance.

 

I'm going to have to call you out on this.

If you're honest and look at Keegan's career as a manager he's had more than his share of value buys and bring talent through the ranks of the club.

Stop believing the Keegan did away with the reserves bollocks and look at the bairns he brought through successfully at Fulham and Citeh. Or the way he's turned player's careers around.

Next thing you'll be telling us our defensive record under him the first time was shite.

 

So what kids would he have brought through here from our academy?

 

I'm not sure when you last looked but there's hardly any quality there, lets also remember this is a bloke who has admitted that he hasn't watched a game live in 3 years and had to look up our squad on the internet because he didn't know who some of them were, a few months on he's going to be the David Dickinson of the Premier League.

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See what I mean man?

He's wrong for trying to make it work then he's wrong for walking out after he was completely undermined.

 

If you're not happy with the set up then walk away, don't lie to everyone that it's alright until the window closes and then walk which is the worst possible time.

 

 

If he did that then people like you would STILL complain about it. :snakehips:

 

Beside it was clearly Milner and the Barton + Owen attempted sale that broke the camels back.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Honestly how can you support Wise as DoF? Especially as if Keegan has his way we'd currently have a stronger squad?

 

I wouldn't be complaining because I'd realise it was for the good of the club, I'm not sure how it was clear the club tried to sell Owen? the Milner money was just to good to turn down and Keegan was happy with that (or he claimed he was) on the understanding that he would be replaced, now the club was rejected by Schweinsteiger on the last day (according to Jimenez's associate on N-O) which is unfortunate but it would have meant getting someone else in in January, nothing wrong with that and I can't see why keegan would have a problem with it either since he faced the same situation when he sold Andy Cole.

 

Wise isn't someone I'd have chosen but I can't knock the players he's brought in with the help of Jimenez and Vetere, would Keegan have done better with a similar budget? I'd say he'd have no chance.

Aye, but we didn't fucking get Schweinstiger, did we? That's the problem. Milner was sold and not replaced. And unlike the Andy Cole situation we've got a tiny squad, lacking in quality. Selling Cole then meant missing out on the Uefa Cup and came 6th. The size of the squad now leaves us in precarious situation. So does the smaller transfer window and the restrictions that causes.

Also, I think it's clear that something was going on with Owen to the extent that the club felt they had to announce he'd been offered a new improved deal. There was a rabbit off there as well.

And you say 'would Keegan have done better with a similar sized budget?' Isn't the budget one of the major problems here? No one was expecting us to go beserk with new players but the budget we had wasn’t adequate. I know, it’s all part of the ‘strategy’.

 

I think you need to calm down lad.

 

it was a problem we missed out on Schweinstiger but not the end of the World as long as we get a replacement in in January, you say about us having a tiny squad being the difference between now and when we sold Cole yet we've got Jonas, N'Zogbia, Geremi and Duff as wide men, how many strikers did we have when Cole was sold? Beardsley, Kitson and?

 

As for Owen, I don't think it was clear something was going at all, you're just putting 2 and 2 together because we released a statement saying Milner had put in a transfer request and was sold shortly afterwards.

 

The budget was small and I had hoped for better but if the money isn't there then what do you think the club should do?

I'm perfectly calm

You make the point about Cole again, but wasn't he sold on deadline day, i.e. March when the club was perfectly safe had a very good squad of players, albeit with a shortage of strikers, and it was known to Keegan that Ferdinand was coming in to replace him (a player he rated as better) and it also allowed him to get Keith Gillespie, etc.? It was for the good of the club in other words. I don't think Keegan saw it this way now. If he did, his reaction made no sense. I don't see it this way now. It was just a case of getting excellent money for a player but imo, for financial and not team building reasons.

As for Owen, we'll see what happens. I don't expect him to stay but if there had been any genuine offer of an improved contract (the club's statement's phrase iirc) then he could have been tied-up ages ago. Whether that is/was deserved is moot but I think it's more lies.

As for the last bit, that's a fair point, but you've no idea any more than I have about how much money was available. I do think Keegan was misled on that score as well though.

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I'm not sure when you last looked but there's hardly any quality there, lets also remember this is a bloke who has admitted that he hasn't watched a game live in 3 years and had to look up our squad on the internet because he didn't know who some of them were, a few months on he's going to be the David Dickinson of the Premier League.

 

Would there have been anything stopping him appointing his own scouts in January?

 

Also on Milner/Scweinsteiger the point is that it looks like he was persuaded on the sale by other possible deals being pretty certain.

 

I've also said before that this structure didn't make use of a major weapon - Keegan's powers of persuasion- I reckon if it was "his" deal, Schweinsteiger would have come.

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See what I mean man?

He's wrong for trying to make it work then he's wrong for walking out after he was completely undermined.

 

If you're not happy with the set up then walk away, don't lie to everyone that it's alright until the window closes and then walk which is the worst possible time.

 

 

If he did that then people like you would STILL complain about it. :snakehips:

 

Beside it was clearly Milner and the Barton + Owen attempted sale that broke the camels back.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Honestly how can you support Wise as DoF? Especially as if Keegan has his way we'd currently have a stronger squad?

 

I wouldn't be complaining because I'd realise it was for the good of the club, I'm not sure how it was clear the club tried to sell Owen? the Milner money was just to good to turn down and Keegan was happy with that (or he claimed he was) on the understanding that he would be replaced, now the club was rejected by Schweinsteiger on the last day (according to Jimenez's associate on N-O) which is unfortunate but it would have meant getting someone else in in January, nothing wrong with that and I can't see why keegan would have a problem with it either since he faced the same situation when he sold Andy Cole.

 

Wise isn't someone I'd have chosen but I can't knock the players he's brought in with the help of Jimenez and Vetere, would Keegan have done better with a similar budget? I'd say he'd have no chance.

Aye, but we didn't fucking get Schweinstiger, did we? That's the problem. Milner was sold and not replaced. And unlike the Andy Cole situation we've got a tiny squad, lacking in quality. Selling Cole then meant missing out on the Uefa Cup and came 6th. The size of the squad now leaves us in precarious situation. So does the smaller transfer window and the restrictions that causes.

Also, I think it's clear that something was going on with Owen to the extent that the club felt they had to announce he'd been offered a new improved deal. There was a rabbit off there as well.

And you say 'would Keegan have done better with a similar sized budget?' Isn't the budget one of the major problems here? No one was expecting us to go beserk with new players but the budget we had wasn’t adequate. I know, it’s all part of the ‘strategy’.

 

I think you need to calm down lad.

 

it was a problem we missed out on Schweinstiger but not the end of the World as long as we get a replacement in in January, you say about us having a tiny squad being the difference between now and when we sold Cole yet we've got Jonas, N'Zogbia, Geremi and Duff as wide men, how many strikers did we have when Cole was sold? Beardsley, Kitson and?

 

As for Owen, I don't think it was clear something was going at all, you're just putting 2 and 2 together because we released a statement saying Milner had put in a transfer request and was sold shortly afterwards.

 

The budget was small and I had hoped for better but if the money isn't there then what do you think the club should do?

I'm perfectly calm

You make the point about Cole again, but wasn't he sold on deadline day, i.e. March when the club was perfectly safe had a very good squad of players, albeit with a shortage of strikers, and it was known to Keegan that Ferdinand was coming in to replace him (a player he rated as better) and it also allowed him to get Keith Gillespie, etc.? It was for the good of the club in other words. I don't think Keegan saw it this way now. If he did, his reaction made no sense. I don't see it this way now. It was just a case of getting excellent money for a player but imo, for financial and not team building reasons.

As for Owen, we'll see what happens. I don't expect him to stay but if there had been any genuine offer of an improved contract (the club's statement's phrase iirc) then he could have been tied-up ages ago. Whether that is/was deserved is moot but I think it's more lies.

As for the last bit, that's a fair point, but you've no idea any more than I have about how much money was available. I do think Keegan was misled on that score as well though.

 

Wrong, look up his interview with Inside Sport interview with Gabby Logan on youtube, he admits he had no clue who to replace Cole with.

 

As for Owen, I think the club were reacting to press statements that we were going to sell him for £5 million or whatever it was, I don't think he'll sign anyway as he played a similar game with Liverpool who sold him on because of it.

 

I'm off anyway, when you've calmed down get signed back up to N-O.

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Ok, the Ferdinand thing aside, assuming it's correct, I think the circumstances were still very different between the Cole situation and this. Which is probably why you went down the point-scoring route instead of addressing the whole post.

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I wouldn't be complaining because I'd realise it was for the good of the club, I'm not sure how it was clear the club tried to sell Owen? the Milner money was just to good to turn down and Keegan was happy with that (or he claimed he was) on the understanding that he would be replaced, now the club was rejected by Schweinsteiger on the last day (according to Jimenez's associate on N-O) which is unfortunate but it would have meant getting someone else in in January, nothing wrong with that and I can't see why keegan would have a problem with it either since he faced the same situation when he sold Andy Cole.

 

Wise isn't someone I'd have chosen but I can't knock the players he's brought in with the help of Jimenez and Vetere, would Keegan have done better with a similar budget? I'd say he'd have no chance.

 

 

 

How would it been to the good of the club to have the same squad we have now, only without Owen or Barton - which is exactly where we'd be with the Wise Transfer Policy™ had everything gone to his plan.

 

You're reading too much into things regarding Owen, as for Barton, he's an embarrassment to the club and the majority wanted him kicked out, the club went out and signed Gonzalas and since Barton looked like facing a massive ban then I don't see anything wrong with trying to get money for him when we had the chance.

 

It's not as if people expected him to play much between now and January anyway.

 

Whether you like Barton or not isn't the question, with a squad our size it is about bodies.

 

 

Even Houghton (who must have 1 eye on his job) said after the Hull match that were desperately need another 3-4 in the squad.

 

Wise's supposed "transfer policy" is :snakehips:, it's a recipe for relegation over a few seasons. Relegation with a 1/2 decent first 11 and money in the bank, if that makes any difference. :rolleyes:

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Dubai says ‘no’ to Ashley after he drinks cocktail in public

 

For a man desperate to sell his football club, Mike Ashley seems to be going about it in a funny way.

 

The Newcastle United owner is in Dubai with chairman Derek Llambias, executive director Dennis Wise and head of recruitment Tony Jimenez, in an effort to secure a buyer.

 

But attempts to double his money with an asking price of £481million have been rejected. Yesterday there were allegations that Ashley snubbed a meeting with a Dubai consortium and caused offence by drinking in public during Ramadan.

 

These claims came as, back home, Wigan Athletic chairman Dave Whelan branded Ashley as unfit to run a football club and deserving of the stick he is getting.

 

A photograph of Ashley allegedly drinking cocktails appeared on the Arabian Business website, with the claim that he had opted to head for the bar rather than a meeting with potential buyers.

 

Associates of Ashley deny this but it was reported that the billionaire businessman refused to go to the meeting when he discovered they were prepared to offer only £200m. Ashley had asked for more than double that in documents handed to representatives of Dubai ruler Sheikh Mohammed bin Rashid Al- Maktoum.

 

A Dubai group indicated they would offer considerably less but a meeting was nevertheless set up at the Madinat Jumeirah Hotel. While Ashley's camp claim Jimenez attended as Newcastle's representative, Arabian Business described Ashley's decision to go drinking with Wise and Llambias as a snub.

 

So far, attempts to stir up interest in Dubai are floundering. Last night, a statement from Dubai Investment Group read: 'Following incorrect media speculation about Newcastle Football Club, Dubai Investment Group can confirm that it is not involved in any negotiations to buy Newcastle Football Club, nor does it plan to do so in the future.'

 

A spokesman for Dubai Sports City said much the same, insisting the three businessmen who privately own the $40billion development are 'not interested' either. Zabeel Investments, owned by Al-Maktoum, appear to have left the door slightly ajar even though chairman Mohammed Ali Al-Hashimi insisted he has had no direct contact with Newcastle or their representatives. 'We have not had any contact and I am not interested in any English Premier League club right now,' he told Arabian Business.

 

One City source criticised Ashley and said: 'What he's reported to be doing in the Middle East sounds like Loony Tunes to me – sheer lunacy. It's all unbelievable. Had it not been for Ashley, a deal could have been done by now, 'Plus, that starting price was ridiculous. They just won't do business in Dubai with such an inflated price. It was simply a plain stupid move and who knows what this guy will do next.'

 

Ashley has turned for help to Keith Harris, the former Football League chairman who secured the deals that saw Icelanders take over West Ham, Randy Lerner buy Aston Villa and Thaksin Shinawatra take charge of Manchester City. Whelan added to the criticism of Ashley yesterday and said: 'I know Mike Ashley quite well because I was running JJB when he was with Sports Direct, and he is a bit unusual.

 

He is a very good retailer, but at managing a football club, no. 'Especially with him being a Tottenham supporter and then going up to Newcastle, a club that is a different kettle of fish to most in the land.

 

'The fans up there eat, breathe and live for one thing, and that is Newcastle United. Unless you put your whole heart into it, they will give you some stick. He has got it and he deserves it.'

 

Newcastle were unavailable comment last night.

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The thing that really bothers about him getting X million over what he's put into the club when selling (other than a large price chasing potential buyers off) is that no matter who buy us, that money is money that is then no longer available for the club. Not that I think Ashley, Wise or any of them deserve any profit for the debacle they have created.

 

Exactly - every pound of profit is a pound less to spend.

 

What a cunt for getting as much as he can for a club who's fans have protested to get him out.

Aye, that's his sole motivation. Just because Leazes got him as much right as you got him wrong there's no need to take the huff. Jog on.

 

and baggy has a go at Keegan for chucking his toys out of his pram :snakehips:

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The thing that really bothers about him getting X million over what he's put into the club when selling (other than a large price chasing potential buyers off) is that no matter who buy us, that money is money that is then no longer available for the club. Not that I think Ashley, Wise or any of them deserve any profit for the debacle they have created.

 

Exactly - every pound of profit is a pound less to spend.

 

What a cunt for getting as much as he can for a club who's fans have protested to get him out.

Aye, that's his sole motivation. Just because Leazes got him as much right as you got him wrong there's no need to take the huff. Jog on.

 

Is that the Leazes who couldn't wait to sell his shares to him or sign up to the 3 year deal he offered?

 

I'm sure what Beardsley tells your dad is the 100% truth though and poor king Kev had no other option but to walk out on another club.

 

I had no choice son.

 

If you had any shares yourself, you would know this.

 

Build up your own knowledge and experience of the toon before passing stupid comments about others is my advice

 

What do you think of your DOF now ?

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I odnt think he has any intention of selling. Hes doing the same as he did last Friday, making it appear that hes trying to sort things out when he isnt.

 

Hes slapped a ridiculous price tag on knowing that people wont be so stupid as to pay that at the same time as he issued a heartfelt plea to stop making his life hell and how he only ever wanted whats best for the club and not a profit.

 

Hes a twat of the highest order, simple as.

 

 

nailed.

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The thing that really bothers about him getting X million over what he's put into the club when selling (other than a large price chasing potential buyers off) is that no matter who buy us, that money is money that is then no longer available for the club. Not that I think Ashley, Wise or any of them deserve any profit for the debacle they have created.

 

Exactly - every pound of profit is a pound less to spend.

 

What a cunt for getting as much as he can for a club who's fans have protested to get him out.

 

The "nonsense" reports that he was trying to sell the club when everything was rosy also had inflated figures - admittedly not this high but that just makes him look even worse.

 

Similar to the "nonsense" reports that Keegan had no say in transfers which he came out and denied so that everyone went out and signed up to 3 year deals, only that turned out to be true too.

 

Both as bad as each other.

Keegan really can't win. You're having a go at him for what you perceive as him toeing the party line and you're having a go at him for walking out.

 

indeed. Like a real southerner who hasn't got a clue basically.

 

The key to success, according to baggy, is this magical DOF system. It doesn't matter about the people, but everybody needs a DOF and everybody will win trophies........... :snakehips:

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The thing that really bothers about him getting X million over what he's put into the club when selling (other than a large price chasing potential buyers off) is that no matter who buy us, that money is money that is then no longer available for the club. Not that I think Ashley, Wise or any of them deserve any profit for the debacle they have created.

 

Exactly - every pound of profit is a pound less to spend.

 

What a cunt for getting as much as he can for a club who's fans have protested to get him out.

 

The "nonsense" reports that he was trying to sell the club when everything was rosy also had inflated figures - admittedly not this high but that just makes him look even worse.

 

Similar to the "nonsense" reports that Keegan had no say in transfers which he came out and denied so that everyone went out and signed up to 3 year deals, only that turned out to be true too.

 

Both as bad as each other.

 

 

So Keegan restating what he'd been told and what had been said by Ashley in the press makes Keegan a liar?

 

I take it it must be one hell of a coincidence that the press were reporting nearly everyday that Keegan was unhappy that he had little say in transfers only for it to turn out to be true, i wonder who was feeding them that story?

 

Have a read of this article from the beginning of May> http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sport/football/...er-targets.html

 

Now do you honestly think that it was bollocks then and everything was rosey up until the end of the transfer window? He knew what was happening yet was happy to come out and lie to the fans about it before walking out on the club the day after the transfer window leaving us in the shit, yet because it's king Kev everyone licks his arse and thinks he's done no wrong.

 

what do you expect him to say in the public domain ? The owner/chairman let him down ? He did that in May and was gagged.

 

Get a fuckin life man.

 

You're a clueless cunt who can't see fuck all or admit you're wrong. Nothing was rosy, he was unhappy for ages, but disguised it because he's naturally optimistic and wanted to ride the storm and come out on top. In the end, he realised he couldn't win and fucked off. Ashley preferred his DOF over his manager. Whats that you used to say about "the manager is replaced and stability is maintained under this system" [words to that effect]. Well, aye stability is maintained alright. The DOF is a useless little cunt and unsackable but this was pointed out to you and you didn't like it.

 

Go and hoy your toys out of the pram.

 

Keegan will retain his affection for this football club long after Ashley and Wise etc have fucked off with their pay offs.

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