Shocking

[Guest Tuco Ramirez]

"I also don''t believe that removing the Taliban was ever the true "mission" in Afghanistan - if it was then they wouldn't have been armed, trained and encouraged in the past with the full knowledge of their abominable regime.

 

As an example of this I'd point out how muted the objections were to Karzai's government allowing rape within marriage - it seems Taliban like polcies are okay when they are enacted by puppets."

 

You're talking absolute fucking shite on both points. Go back and read my post regarding the Sharia Family Law in this thread for some information with a factual basis regarding that one.

 

You think because past governments armed the Taliban in an ill-fated scheme to combat the Russians that we can never be in the position to correct that mistake? Blair has spoken pubicly about his disapproval of the strategies that involved arming the likes of OBL and S.Hussein to combat enemies such as Iran and Russia. When the Taliban had majority control of Afghanistan and allowed Al Quaeda to build a strong-bed there how exactly wasn't it in the interests of the US to remove them post 9-11? And if it wasn't their mission, why did they bother doing it in the first place? I suppose Dick Cheney cut down the twin towers with a chain saw so he could get some oil, you've really shown yourself up here lad. You might want to go with that BUPA health insurance and get a fucking check up, brain scan seems to be called for in this instance.

 

Criticism of Stalin was suppressed in this country when he was an ally against Hitler. Does that give us no right to condemn Stalin? You are bereft of logic and a sense of reality.

 

I personally don't agree with LM or Stevie's views, but you talk as much nonsense as anyone with your patter, and if your redundant ideology was actually implemented in the world then the Taliban/Al Quaeda would have full control of Afghanistan for starters, and then Pakistan would be on the menu for dessert. So you can harp on all day about how terrible religion is but you're an absolute hypocrite.

Which particular view mate?

[acrossthepond 866]

ATP, are you saying Salman Rushdie deserves to die?

 

I killed him last week. That's a Rushdiebot out there. His next book, "Dr. Strangelove, or, How I learned to stop worrying and love Islam" comes out next week.

 

Also most of the MPs are now Muslimbots as well and Commons will hear our referendum on implementing sharia law next month. All part of our grand plot to take over the Western world, orchestrated from our intricate network of caves in Brumistan. We'd have got the show on the road sooner but we kept having to interrupt our meetings for our 5-times-daily prayers to Allah.

[LeazesMag 0]

1. I thought the abuse the black man received was shocking.

 

do you ? I think it is next to fuck all, to be honest. Hardly on a par with beheading someone for having different views....similar incidents in an Islam state would lead to a beheading or at the very best stoned to death by the mob, with the "police" standing by and watching.

[Happy Face 29]

1. I thought the abuse the black man received was shocking.

 

do you ? I think it is next to fuck all, to be honest. Hardly on a par with beheading someone for having different views....similar incidents in an Islam state would lead to a beheading or at the very best stoned to death by the mob, with the "police" standing by and watching.

 

How many times? Yes I do. And I agree it's not on a par with beheading someone for holding different views. When did that happen?

 

Of course, I've not once tried to make the comparison.....You have. And I'm not sure what you prove in doing so.

 

Liverpool are fucking shocking.

 

 

Guthrie and Barton were absolutely shocking today

 

 

Shocking to think that Adam 'Can I have another pork sandwich?' Boulton is considered one of the main 'journalists' at the moment.

 

 

the senna piece was class too. he was a bit of a schumacher mind when it came to barging opponents off the road. shocking what he did to alain prost

 

Why don't you chase after every other poster like a dog with a bone for suggesting something entirely unrelated is shocking that's not quite up there with your definition?

Edited October 18, 2010 by Happy Face

[Kevin S. Assilleekunt 1]

"The invasion of Afghanistan was about revenge - it had absolutely fuck all to do with making the world safer"

 

Care to substantiate that?

 

"I honestly couldn't care less if the Taliban were still in charge"

 

You're an absolute fucking disgrace.

 

"Going on a world tour to sort out cunts sounds good - the only problem is a major part of the list would include allies and countries we wouldn't dare attack (China)."

 

Again, absolutely unadulterated shit pouring from you. How exactly do China compare to a failed state in a key region of the world that is under the control of the Taliban and Al Quaeda? It is clear you have absolutely no grasp of the facts surrounding this topic and you continually resort to unsubstantiated, slanderous and frankly stupid remarks regarding it. If you gave the slightest shit about any of it you'd at least familiarize yourself with the topic and weigh up the pros and cons of various approaches to it. You're obviously not to be taken seriously and incapable of serious discussion, a shame when you seem so insistent on proselytizing; you display the same ignorance and deceit of a TV evangelist.

[Kevin S. Assilleekunt 1]

He isn't defending the Taliban though ffs.

 

I honestly couldn't care less if the Taliban were still in charge

 

Straw man stuff is it Alex? Daft cunt.

[tooner 243]

The key thing with all this bollocks is a lot of the muslims in Afghanistan live a nomadic, inhumane, barbaric, savage lifestyle that has no place in the modern world. Cutting someones nose off, I mean for fuck sake. Stoning people, I'm sorry if it sounds racist but these people aren't human, and there's loads of them. There are good muslims, I don't tar them all with the same brush, but I think if they had half a brain and could get out from the grasp of their heritage, intelligent muslims would understand how pathetic the religion is. Believe in god yes, but taking the Qu'ran literally oh dear.

 

The worst thing about this type of thread is you could write down 5 points each poster will make, and it's always the same every time like groundhog day, which is why I never post in these threads. Leazesmag is right to a point, you should be allowed to speak your mind about multiculturalism, and if you have an opinion that the muslim way of life isn't condusive to British life, then you should be allowed to express your views without being pidgeon holed as a racist. I've been accused of being racist many times on here, fuckin Ghandi was more racist than me, I'm not racist, but freedom of expression must be allowed and respected.

 

 

Read it in the context I put it you yank nob. Are people who cut a girls nose and ears off human? I don't think they are, it doesn't say ALL muslims aren't human does it?

 

 

not sure whats worse, your geographic knowledge or the fact you think you can qualify a statement like that. Certainly the taliban and those responsible for cutting that girls nose off are barbaric without question. But it doesn't mean that they are some how less than human and therefore ok to wipe off the face of the earth.

 

The fact that we live in a civil society and hopefully are above acts like those posted in the OP is what separates us from those that do not hold the same values. But if we indiscriminately dole out retribution in the form superior military might to eradicate those we deem as "less than human" we are no longer occupying the moral high ground.

[Guest Tuco Ramirez]

The key thing with all this bollocks is a lot of the muslims in Afghanistan live a nomadic, inhumane, barbaric, savage lifestyle that has no place in the modern world. Cutting someones nose off, I mean for fuck sake. Stoning people, I'm sorry if it sounds racist but these people aren't human, and there's loads of them. There are good muslims, I don't tar them all with the same brush, but I think if they had half a brain and could get out from the grasp of their heritage, intelligent muslims would understand how pathetic the religion is. Believe in god yes, but taking the Qu'ran literally oh dear.

 

The worst thing about this type of thread is you could write down 5 points each poster will make, and it's always the same every time like groundhog day, which is why I never post in these threads. Leazesmag is right to a point, you should be allowed to speak your mind about multiculturalism, and if you have an opinion that the muslim way of life isn't condusive to British life, then you should be allowed to express your views without being pidgeon holed as a racist. I've been accused of being racist many times on here, fuckin Ghandi was more racist than me, I'm not racist, but freedom of expression must be allowed and respected.

 

 

Read it in the context I put it you yank nob. Are people who cut a girls nose and ears off human? I don't think they are, it doesn't say ALL muslims aren't human does it?

 

 

not sure whats worse, your geographic knowledge or the fact you think you can qualify a statement like that. Certainly the taliban and those responsible for cutting that girls nose off are barbaric without question. But it doesn't mean that they are some how less than human and therefore ok to wipe off the face of the earth.

The fact that we live in a civil society and hopefully are above acts like those posted in the OP is what separates us from those that do not hold the same values. But if we indiscriminately dole out retribution in the form superior military might to eradicate those we deem as "less than human" we are no longer occupying the moral high ground.

Why not? By any standards we have a point here. Killing people is evil obviously. What they do though I've heard of stripping someones dignity but cutting a girls nose off????!?!?!??!??! I'm sure they'd rather they were dead. They shouldn't exist by the rules they play by, they're an evil of the earth. I say it again, muslims, America and Israel are the root of most the evil in the world. You though pipe down you yank cunt.

[AgentAxeman 169]

lovin' this thread.

[LeazesMag 0]

Why don't you chase after every other poster like a dog with a bone for suggesting something entirely unrelated is shocking that's not quite up there with your definition?

 

I'm not chasing you anywhere HF. I just thought the original post of "shocking" was making mountains out of molehills, which is what you lefties tend to do. No offence intended, just my point of view.

 

If anything, the police took him away from any possible danger, whereas in an Islam state, they would probably have left him to be beheaded or at best stoned to death just for having a different religious persuasion.

[LeazesMag 0]

The key thing with all this bollocks is a lot of the muslims in Afghanistan live a nomadic, inhumane, barbaric, savage lifestyle that has no place in the modern world. Cutting someones nose off, I mean for fuck sake. Stoning people, I'm sorry if it sounds racist but these people aren't human, and there's loads of them. There are good muslims, I don't tar them all with the same brush, but I think if they had half a brain and could get out from the grasp of their heritage, intelligent muslims would understand how pathetic the religion is. Believe in god yes, but taking the Qu'ran literally oh dear.

 

The worst thing about this type of thread is you could write down 5 points each poster will make, and it's always the same every time like groundhog day, which is why I never post in these threads. Leazesmag is right to a point, you should be allowed to speak your mind about multiculturalism, and if you have an opinion that the muslim way of life isn't condusive to British life, then you should be allowed to express your views without being pidgeon holed as a racist. I've been accused of being racist many times on here, fuckin Ghandi was more racist than me, I'm not racist, but freedom of expression must be allowed and respected.

 

 

Read it in the context I put it you yank nob. Are people who cut a girls nose and ears off human? I don't think they are, it doesn't say ALL muslims aren't human does it?

 

 

not sure whats worse, your geographic knowledge or the fact you think you can qualify a statement like that. Certainly the taliban and those responsible for cutting that girls nose off are barbaric without question. But it doesn't mean that they are some how less than human and therefore ok to wipe off the face of the earth.

 

The fact that we live in a civil society and hopefully are above acts like those posted in the OP is what separates us from those that do not hold the same values. But if we indiscriminately dole out retribution in the form superior military might to eradicate those we deem as "less than human" we are no longer occupying the moral high ground.

 

oh dear.

 

Your superiority complex is coming to the fore here isn't it.

 

Fact is you idiotic yank wannabee, is those who you defend aren't civilised. I don't know whats worse, the fact that you are stupid enough to think you are dealing with people that can be reasoned with, or the fact that you appear to think that having superior military might means we [ie the west] are likely to dish out the usage of this might, which we have not done unlike the cretins you defend who will obliterate Israel as soon as they are able.

 

Unbelievable.

[LeazesMag 0]

i'm going to try to get this thread back on topic.

 

the fact that this kind of thing goes on in the world is horrifying. fucking savages. there really is no way to defend it.

 

totally agree. That is why I posted it.

 

I expected one or two to play it down or even defend it though, but there is really no excuse for it at all. It's of even more concern that this is the sort of mentality they would try and impose on us, because they certainly won't change their ways in the name of "multiculturism and tolerance". Not a chance.

 

well, i don't agree with that. this kind of thing doesn't happen in most parts of the civilised world. britain is a good example of multiculturism - it works. the taliban however, are barbarians. i don't think we will win the war in afghanistan and that is a real worry. these people are animals.

 

I don't really think that multiculurism is working, nor will it ever work. For it to work, the onus is on those accepted into a country to conform ie when in Rome do as the Romans do, but wherever muslims go in the world, they are totally intolerant of said countries traditions and cultures. Everything has to stop for Allah so far as they are concerned, and they expect others to do the same. In their homeland, yes, but not elsewhere.

 

This problem is now a worldwide one, although the UK because of the PC correct brigade has it bigger than most if not the biggest, and will only accelerate. Our politicians don't have the balls to tell the pc correct brigade where to go, basically.

 

Prime example here:

 

http://www.express.co.uk/posts/view/172324...-dress-ban-vote

 

"The law's author, Daniel Bacquelaine, said a burka is incompatible with basic security as everyone in public must be recognisable and clashes with the principles of a society that respects the rights of all."

 

 

huge over-simplification, i would agree with that statement if you had singled out "fundamentalist islam", but I would also point out that fundamentalist christianity does much the same thing, ie trampling local indiginous cultures in the name of saving the population from eternal damnation.

 

and as far as multiculturalism goes, sure it works. It's worked over here, despite resistance by portions of the population that are scared of anything/anyone they can't identify with on the basis of a first impression.

 

I would love to take part more in this discussion today but I have to go and study , I look forward to having a debate on this further after tomorrow 11 am local time.

 

ah. It becomes clearer. You're a 14 year old then

[Happy Face 29]

Why don't you chase after every other poster like a dog with a bone for suggesting something entirely unrelated is shocking that's not quite up there with your definition?

 

I'm not chasing you anywhere HF. I just thought the original post of "shocking" was making mountains out of molehills, which is what you lefties tend to do. No offence intended, just my point of view.

 

If anything, the police took him away from any possible danger,

 

 

For the 10th time....

 

1. I thought the abuse the black man received was shocking.

 

whereas in an Islam state, they would probably have left him to be beheaded or at best stoned to death just for having a different religious persuasion.

 

 

I agree it's not on a par with beheading someone for holding different views. When did that happen?

[Happy Face 29]

you are stupid enough to think you are dealing with people that can be reasoned with

 

 

You are pretty stuck in your ways like.

[Happy Face 29]

After decades spent trying to better explain the Arab World to other Americans, all too often I have found myself running up against the same mythologies and half-truths that, year after year, stubbornly maintain an alarming ability to shape thinking about the region.

 

One of the reasons I wrote “Arab Voices: What They Are Saying to Us and Why It Matters” was to challenge these myths head on. Unlike so many other books or articles that have been written about this region, “Arab Voices” is neither a retelling(or an interpretation) of history, nor is it a collection of personal anecdotes. These approaches can be useful, and there are excellent examples that have made real contributions to our understanding. But they are also susceptible to bias or to what I call “bad science” – as in the case of writers with a penchant for elevating an observation or a conversation into a generalized conclusion (the musings of Tom Friedman comes to mind).

 

My starting point is hard data, derived from more that a decade of polling Zogby International has conducted across the Middle East. Where I use personal anecdotes, it is to “put flesh on the bones” of the numbers in order to help tell the stories of those Arabs whose realities we must understand.

 

I love polling (and not merely because my brother John is the business). Polling opens a window and lets in voices we seldom hear. When we ask 4,000 Arabs from Morocco to the United Arab Emirates to tell us their attitudes toward the United States, to identify their most important political concerns, their attitudes toward women in the workplace, or what programs they watch on television – and when we organize their responses by country, and then by age or gender or class, and then listen to what they are saying – we are able pierce through the fog of myth and learn.

 

And learning is important, because for too long our understanding of this region and its peoples have been clouded by distorted stereotypes and myths. They have dominated our thinking and, in some cases, have shaped our policies. I look at each of these myths in “Arab Voices” and then contrast the assumptions and misperceptions behind them with polling data that reveal what Arabs really think.

 

The five myths I examine are:

 

1) Are Arabs all the same and can they, therefore, be reduced to a “type”(as in “all Arabs are this or that”)? Reading the broad generalizations and crude caricatures of Arabs found in Raphael Patai’s “Arab Mind” (used as a training manual by the U.S. military in Iraq) or Tom Friedman’s “Mid East Rules to Live By” might lead one to think so. But our polling reveals a very different view. What we find when we survey public opinion is a rich and varied landscape across the Arab World that defies stereotype. Not only are there diverse sub-cultures and unique histories that give texture to life, making Egyptians different than Saudis or Lebanese. There are also generational differences. For example, younger Arabs (who are 60% of the population of this region) are caught up with globalization and change. They share different concerns and aspire to different goals than their parents. They are more open to gender equality and are less tied to tradition.

 

2) Are Arabs so diverse that they do not constitute a world at all? That’s what “The Economist” would have us believe. In a special 2009 issue of this magazine, the editors described the region as “a big amorphous thing and arguably not a thing at all”. Once again, our polling reveals quite the opposite. Across the region, Arabs do identify as “Arabs” and they describe themselves as tied to one another by a common language (and the common history that implies) and shared political concerns, with majorities of all generations and in all countries demonstrating a strong attachment to Palestine and the fate of the Iraqi people.

 

3) Are Arabs all angry, hating us, “our values” and “our way of life”? In a recent poll, we found this view to be shared by a plurality of Americans. But our work in the Arab World, finds quite the opposite to be true. Arabs like the American people, and they not only respect our education and our advances in science and technology, they also like our values of “freedom and democracy”. What they don’t like are our policies toward them, which lead them to believe that we don’t like them. As one Arab businessman said to me, “we feel like jilted lovers”.

 

4) Are Arabs are driven by religious fanaticism? Arabs are, like many in the West, “people of faith”, with their values shaped by their religious traditions. But mosque attendance rates across the Middle East are about the same as church attendance rates here in the U.S. And when we ask Arabs what programs they prefer to watch on TV, the list is as varied as those favored by American viewers. In Egypt, Morocco and Saudi Arabia (the largest countries covered in our polls) the top rated programs are movies and soap operas. Religious programs are near the bottom of the list. And when we ask Arabs to list their most important concerns, not surprisingly, the top two are the quality of their work and their families.

 

So in contrast to the mythic notion that “Arabs go to bed at night hating America and wake up hating Israel and spend their days either watching news or listening to preachers who fuel that anger”, the reality is that “Arabs go to bed each night thinking about their jobs and wake up each day thinking about their kids and spend each day thinking about how to improve the quality of their lives”.

 

5) Lastly there is the myth that Arabs reject reform and will not change, unless the West pushes them. This has been a fundamental tenet of the neo-conservatives. Derived from the writings of Bernard Lewis, this myth provided one of the rationales for the Iraq war – the idea being that we would destroy the “old regime” giving birth to “the new Middle East”.

 

What our polling shows, however, is that Arabs do want reform, but the reform they want is theirs, not ours. Their top domestic priorities are: better jobs, improved health care and expanded educational opportunities (sound familiar?). Our findings further demonstrate that most Arabs do not want us meddling in their internal affairs, but they would welcome our assistance in helping their societies build capacity to provide services and improve the quality of their lives.

 

When we look at the Arab World more closely and listen to Arabs more carefully, we learn that this region and its people are not as they have been imagined by Hollywood or projected by political ideologues with an axe to grind. They can not be reduced to the mythic stereotypes that have so warped our understanding and contributed to distorting our policies. With this realization will come the ability to engage productively with the people of this region which has become so critical to our national interests.

 

James Zogby is author of Arab Voices: What They Are Saying to Us, and Why it Matters

[Renton 21032]

He isn't defending the Taliban though ffs.

 

I honestly couldn't care less if the Taliban were still in charge

 

Straw man stuff is it Alex? Daft cunt.

 

How is that defending the Taliban? I think the gist is that NJS thinks the Afghans are no better off now than they would have been if the status quo had remained. You may not agree with that contention (I'm personally unsure) but it's a straw man argument to suggest NJS in any way supports or is defending the Taliban.

 

Personally, I think the Afghanistan war has proved to be be wrong in hindsight. The Iraq war was wrong in foresight imo.

[JawD 99]

Last statement is right imo. I don't think we ever should have got dragged into Iraq. Had we not, it's also unlikely we'd have went to Afghanistan, though not impossible. I'd like to see us pull out sooner rather than later.

[Renton 21032]

Last statement is right imo. I don't think we ever should have got dragged into Iraq. Had we not, it's also unlikely we'd have went to Afghanistan, though not impossible. I'd like to see us pull out sooner rather than later.

 

I think the Afghanistan war predated Iraq didn't it?

[JawD 99]

Last statement is right imo. I don't think we ever should have got dragged into Iraq. Had we not, it's also unlikely we'd have went to Afghanistan, though not impossible. I'd like to see us pull out sooner rather than later.

 

I think the Afghanistan war predated Iraq didn't it?

 

Yeah by two years when I think about it. Not sure why I keep thinking we invaded after Iraq following 9/11.

 

Either way, invading Iraq was a farce built on lies. Even Afghanistan, why did we think we or the US could succeed where others failed? Of course the US couldn't sit back and do nothing after 9/11 but was the UK not almost bullied into it? I seem to recall Bush saying something like "those that are not with us are against us"? I don't know what the right approach was or is, but don't think we should be there now.

[Kevin S. Assilleekunt 1]

Can't take any of you seriously when you don't even know when our involvement in the conflicts started Daft bastards.

 

The mission in Afghanistan hasn't proven to be wrong in hindsight; it went wrong, for many reasons, but don't expect them to be discussed sensibly on here by the ignorant bastards who squirm around together like retarded tadpoles throwing out their lame, redundant and irrelevant rhetoric about straw men, and how much they care for the Afghan people. Really, are you wetting the bed in your angst for the oppressed Afghans, or weeping while you read the Beano and play the Xbox and think of the dead? Thought not. Lot of people on here with brass necks.

[NJS 4355]

KSA:

 

How many years were the Taliban allowed to rule with all that entails in terms of human rughts and run Al Quadia camps before anything was done?

 

Did the camps suddenly come to notice on Sept 12th 2001?

[Renton 21032]

Can't take any of you seriously when you don't even know when our involvement in the conflicts started Daft bastards.

 

The mission in Afghanistan hasn't proven to be wrong in hindsight; it went wrong, for many reasons, but don't expect them to be discussed sensibly on here by the ignorant bastards who squirm around together like retarded tadpoles throwing out their lame, redundant and irrelevant rhetoric about straw men, and how much they care for the Afghan people. Really, are you wetting the bed in your angst for the oppressed Afghans, or weeping while you read the Beano and play the Xbox and think of the dead? Thought not. Lot of people on here with brass necks.

 

What a daft post. Firstly, my question to JawD was clearly rhetorical, it's called having good manners, something you could learn from.

 

Secondly, you're the one that's having a go at NJS for not caring about the Taliban being in charge for humanitarian reasons, with the implication being that you do care.

 

Myself, I don't especially care about the population of Afghanistan any more or less than I do any other country outside the West. I think what's happened there is desperately sad, but then that's the case with many other countries as well - I don't think it's our responsibility to 'fix' these countries though. From a national security point of view, I just don't accept that Afghanistan has been, or will be, a success, that's the botton line for me. I think we could have made ourselves more secure by investing a fraction of the money spent on counter terrorism intelligence and perhaps by aiding Pakistan in its reistance to the Taliban. You're welcome to disagree but you should avoid being a patronising tool whole you're at it if you want a genuine debate.

[Kevin S. Assilleekunt 1]

KSA:

 

How many years were the Taliban allowed to rule with all that entails in terms of human rughts and run Al Quadia camps before anything was done?

 

Did the camps suddenly come to notice on Sept 12th 2001?

 

The Taliban didn't gain 100% control of the country by that point but it was close enough, the UF was decimated over the course of the civil war and on its last legs until other forces stepped in. The attitude towards Al Quaeda and the nature of that threat changed post 9-11; is Captain Obvious on his day off, I thought he would be around to point that one out FOR FUCK'S SAKE.

 

Now I have insulted you and I apologize for that, but you have set me off, and you seem to be a perpetual line-crosser. I'm going to refrain from responding to you further because you're not sensible, you display a severe lack of knowledge surrounding this subject, and as a result are not worth communicating with regarding it.

[Guest Tuco Ramirez]

Can't take any of you seriously when you don't even know when our involvement in the conflicts started Daft bastards.

 

The mission in Afghanistan hasn't proven to be wrong in hindsight; it went wrong, for many reasons, but don't expect them to be discussed sensibly on here by the ignorant bastards who squirm around together like retarded tadpoles throwing out their lame, redundant and irrelevant rhetoric about straw men, and how much they care for the Afghan people. Really, are you wetting the bed in your angst for the oppressed Afghans, or weeping while you read the Beano and play the Xbox and think of the dead? Thought not. Lot of people on here with brass necks.

 

What a daft post. Firstly, my question to JawD was clearly rhetorical, it's called having good manners, something you could learn from.

 

Secondly, you're the one that's having a go at NJS for not caring about the Taliban being in charge for humanitarian reasons, with the implication being that you do care.

 

Myself, I don't especially care about the population of Afghanistan any more or less than I do any other country outside the West. I think what's happened there is desperately sad, but then that's the case with many other countries as well - I don't think it's our responsibility to 'fix' these countries though. From a national security point of view, I just don't accept that Afghanistan has been, or will be, a success, that's the botton line for me. I think we could have made ourselves more secure by investing a fraction of the money spent on counter terrorism intelligence and perhaps by aiding Pakistan in its reistance to the Taliban. You're welcome to disagree but you should avoid being a patronising tool whole you're at it if you want a genuine debate.

I must be seeing things.

[Guest alex]

As KSA descends into meltdown I wonder, could he be more of a hypocrite?