Cheick Tiote

[BigWalrus 0]

This is the problem for me.

 

His yellows annoy me because Perch & Williamson usually get them from errors or "accidents" - but Tiote's seem to be all rage driven. Tiote is a GOOD player, no two ways about it , but that makes his excessive disciplinary problems all the more annoying.

 

Yesterdays match was a prime example of what I mean - I don't want a player we have to mitigate for due to him missing matches through nothing more than ego or stupidity.

 

He's a driven, aggressive player, but I don't agree that his fouls are driven by rage. I think you're reading too much into his internet based stereotype. If you have a player like that in your side, the opposition know that they can't get away with dwelling on the ball and it forces them into so many more errors.

[scoobos 297]

I don't take it from the internet, its just my personal view. I don't really understand why people think he doesn't have a discipline problem.

 

As well as the skills you list, I'd expect a proper DMF to also factor in having high discipline for this role - simply endlessly harrying opponents is not enough , if it means hes going to do something stupid in every single game.

 

All I'm seeing is a run of appearances, both for his country and club that are consecutively getting yellows match on match.

 

That said, I thought Cabaye's attitude was rubbish when he first arrived and hes (mostly) proved me wrong.

[BigWalrus 0]

I don't take it from the internet, its just my personal view. I don't really understand why people think he doesn't have a discipline problem.

 

As well as the skills you list, I'd expect a proper DMF to also factor in having high discipline for this role - simply endlessly harrying opponents is not enough , if it means hes going to do something stupid in every single game.

 

All I'm seeing is a run of appearances, both for his country and club that are consecutively getting yellows match on match.

 

That said, I thought Cabaye's attitude was rubbish when he first arrived and hes (mostly) proved me wrong.

 

Show me another player who plays the defensive midfield role that doesn't pick up a load of yellows. If they're not getting at least 7 yellows a season then they're either incredibly lucky or not doing their job properly.

[Happy Face 29]

I don't take it from the internet, its just my personal view. I don't really understand why people think he doesn't have a discipline problem.

 

As well as the skills you list, I'd expect a proper DMF to also factor in having high discipline for this role - simply endlessly harrying opponents is not enough , if it means hes going to do something stupid in every single game.

 

All I'm seeing is a run of appearances, both for his country and club that are consecutively getting yellows match on match.

 

He's not had a yellow card in consecutive games all season (his straight red against the mackems followed a yellow against Man U and started this whole daft argument that he's a liability)

 

He's missed less games through suspension than he has through being African.

[scoobos 297]

We might have to agree to disagree on this one.

 

 

Roy Keane (peak) 1999 season (you win on this one !) 50 appearances 9 yellows. 18%

Makelele (2000 season) 54 appearances 9 yellows. 17% ratio

Owen Hargreaves 2007/2008 37 appearances 4 yellows 10% ish.

 

 

Tiote this year - 22 appearances 11 yellows 1 red 48% ratio on yellows.

Tiote last year 28 - 14 yellows 50% ratio

 

and in case you think I picked superstars vs tiote, 1 a bit closer to home Mr "yellow" himself.

 

David Batty 1999 24 appearances 10 yellows - still less than tiote's current ratio.

 

 

 

I'm not a tiote hater, I think hes got great potential, but I added with his ANC commitments we just cant rely on him being available for 20% of a season.

 

Anyhoo, just my two cents.

[scoobos 297]

He's not had a yellow card in consecutive games all season (his straight red against the mackems followed a yellow against Man U and started this whole daft argument that he's a liability)

 

He's missed less games through suspension than he has through being African.

 

I must be watching the wrong tiote.

 

Tiote - 23 Sep 2012 Newcastle Norwich Yellow

26th sept Man Utd - Yellow

 

then again

 

04th oct vs Bordeaux , then next match 07th Oct Man Utd , both bookings

 

then again

 

25th Oct - FC Bruges , then again next match 08th Nov , Bruges

 

Apart from that hes got a 50% ratio, with his only clean patch being 4 games between nov and dec.

 

Last year he did three in a row three times

- Africa Cup of Nations 3 matches from 26th Jan to 12 feb

and again 04th march to 01st april

then again 02 may to 13th may

[BigWalrus 0]

You've chosen players from over 10 years ago, when you could get away with far more on a football pitch. We need like for like years, otherwise I don't think it's a fair comparison. I'm expecting Tiote to be high up on the list as he does pick up a few more yellows than he should, but I don't see it as enough to want to ditch him.

 

As for ACN, it's not every year - we've just seen two in a row because they wanted to stagger them either side of the World Cup (they'll now be played only on odd years). So the next one will be 2015.

[scoobos 297]

I wanted to do this year but couldn't think of any decent defensive midfielders - I don't really watch anyone other than the toon.

 

I thought ACN was every year - ooops!

 

I'll edit this with some recent players shortly, but I reckon it'll be the same story - I doubt anyones sporting the 45% ratio Tiote has.

Edited February 15, 2013 by scoobos

[scoobos 297]

Paul Scharner - last year - 38 appearances 9 yellows - 24%

Francis Coquelin - this year - 20 appearances 1 yellow - 5%

Rory Delap - last year - 36 , 5 - 14%

Scott Parker - last year 49, 11 - 23%

Yaya Toure - last year 47, 13 - 28%

 

last big one, though I know hes not DMF - it still shows tiote's problem :

 

Joey Barton - last year 34 , 10 - 30%

 

I can't think of any more , but they are all getting nearly half the ratio of our livewire.

 

I reckon Sissoko, Mbwia or Anita are better bets.

Edited February 15, 2013 by scoobos

[wolfy 12]

The people that should judge Tiote are the players that play against him. Their input will give a more in depth opinion as to whether he's worth anything to the team.

I could guarantee you now that if opposition players were asked about Tiotes' worth to our team, they would all say, " he's a terrifying nightmare to come up against, as he will not allow you to settle in a game.

 

The fact that he gets yellow cards for sometimes, stupid looking fouls, is his desire not to be outdone in anything on the field of play, which means, by percentage, him and Cabaye are the most likely to guarantee themselves a yellow as part and parcel of "their" game.

 

I agree we walk a tightrope with him, as his style of combat will mark him out as a ref's favourite as far as bookings go, yet it has to be classed as a necessary evil type of thing, because it's players like him that "overall" prevent us being over-run by the bigger more physical and technical teams.

 

He's been off form this season on the whole, yet he knows, now that he's not a guaranteed starter like he was before and it might make him think a little bit more about the needless tackles he makes when there is no danger.

He's a top quality player and would walk into any team in the prem.

[Andrew 4220]

Paul Scharner - last year - 38 appearances 9 yellows - 24%

Francis Coquelin - this year - 20 appearances 1 yellow - 5%

Rory Delap - last year - 36 , 5 - 14%

Scott Parker - last year 49, 11 - 23%

Yaya Toure - last year 47, 13 - 28%

 

last big one, though I know hes not DMF - it still shows tiote's problem :

 

Joey Barton - last year 34 , 10 - 30%

 

I can't think of any more , but they are all getting nearly half the ratio of our livewire.

 

I reckon Sissoko, Mbwia or Anita are better bets.

 

Why not look up yellows in the league rather than just "who you can think of"

 

Shocking way of doing it that

[Happy Face 29]

In his first season I have it that Tiote was booked 14 times in 2308 minutes = 1 in 165

Last year he was booked 11 times in 2038 minutes = 1 in 185

This year he was booked 5 times in 1024 minutes = 1 in 204

 

So improving his discipline every year.

 

Scholes has had a booking every 114 minutes this season. he was on one every 170 minutes in 10/11. That must be the worst worst in the league. No-one would imagine suggesting Man u should get rid. it's accepted as a niggling side issue in his game.

 

Tiote is comparable to El Ahmadi at Villa (1 in 218) & Garcia at Man City (1 in 203) this year.

[scoobos 297]

Scholes is an old man and Andrew I don't understand they are league and champions league stats, from premiership 1st team players.

Edited February 15, 2013 by scoobos

[Happy Face 29]

Scholes is an old man and Andrew I don't understand they are league and champions league stats, from premiership 1st team players.

 

Always been a dirty player though.

[Andrew 4220]

Scholes is an old man and Andrew I don't understand they are league and champions league stats, from premiership 1st team players.

 

That you have picked and chosen based on remembering them

 

That's not a proper sample. Why not compare him to Hernandez at Man U? Or petr Cech? You'd be sure to get favourable results then.

[scoobos 297]

all the players are DMF, I still miss your point Andrew.

To be honest I picked them from F365's top 20 DMF of 2012 report.

 

 

Whats wrong with the selection and why pick a forward or a goalkeeper to compare? They all play the tiote role dont they (except barton).

Edited February 15, 2013 by scoobos

[BigWalrus 0]

Paul Scharner - last year - 38 appearances 9 yellows - 24%

Francis Coquelin - this year - 20 appearances 1 yellow - 5%

Rory Delap - last year - 36 , 5 - 14%

Scott Parker - last year 49, 11 - 23%

Yaya Toure - last year 47, 13 - 28%

 

last big one, though I know hes not DMF - it still shows tiote's problem :

 

Joey Barton - last year 34 , 10 - 30%

 

I can't think of any more , but they are all getting nearly half the ratio of our livewire.

 

I reckon Sissoko, Mbwia or Anita are better bets.

 

That's a better selection of players to compare him with, as it's a bit more current than Roy Keane etc. As I said earlier, I would expect him to have quite a high number of yellows, as there are one or two that he picks up from reputation alone. We'd obviously love him to get booked less (particularly the odd one where you wonder why he even went in for the tackle in the first place), but part of that comes with commitment to to the cause. He is much better than he was when he first came here - the problem is that he now has a reputation and referees are quite happy to book him early on.

 

Your last comment about Sissoko, Mbiwa or Anita being better bets is confusing. Are you suggesting that any of those three could play the defensive midfielder role better than Tiote?

 

Sissoko could do a good job there, but I feel we'd be wasting his obvious skill on the ball by playing him so deep. Mbiwa looks a tidy player, but he's a centre back and has been bought to play there. Anita is one where I'm hoping he'll come good, but right now he's too powderpuff and lightweight to play the holding role. He also has a tendency to go missing if the game isn't going well.

[scoobos 297]

Yeah my choice of Anita is probably laced by my thoughts that he's not getting a fair go at the moment . I'd pick him over perch as DMF is supposed to be anita's strongpoint.

 

While I've argued the toss on stats, they are just that - but I was shocked at finding hes got 3 yellow cards in a row 3 times last year - thats just not good enough (for me).

 

I hope as much as anyone that he gets back to his form when he arrived, but I can't get over what I see as a pretty serious discipline problem. I'm usually wrong, so I hope he proves it.

[BigWalrus 0]

I'd also add, from last season:

 

Alex Song - 10 yellows

Gareth Barry - 8 yellows + 1 red

Lee Cattermole - 11 yellows + 1 red

 

Basically, if you play in that sort of position, you're expected to pick up bookings. If Tiote was picking up 20 a season, I'd be concerned. 15 and I'd raise an eyebrow. Anywhere in the 7-12 area and I shrug my shoulders.

[scoobos 297]

I'm working off percentages on Appearances though.

 

The ratios for even those players aren't as bad.

 

I see :

 

Alex Song - 46 apps , 13 yellows - 28%

Gareth Barry 10 yellows 1 red - 51 apps. - 22%

Lee Cattermole 27, 13 - this one is the same as Tiote, but Tiote is far more talented, which is why I'm pissed with him - 48%

 

Same year

 

Tiote 28 , 14 - 50% .

 

Thats twice as many as everyone we've mentioned other than Lee Cattershite.

 

<end statto>

[Aeris 0]

I'd also add, from last season:

 

Alex Song - 10 yellows

Gareth Barry - 8 yellows + 1 red

Lee Cattermole - 11 yellows + 1 red

 

Basically, if you play in that sort of position, you're expected to pick up bookings. If Tiote was picking up 20 a season, I'd be concerned. 15 and I'd raise an eyebrow. Anywhere in the 7-12 area and I shrug my shoulders.

 

His decision making is horrible though, always something insanely stupid about his fouls.

[BigWalrus 0]

His decision making is horrible though, always something insanely stupid about his fouls.

 

What's your solution then? Sell him and put Anita in there instead? We'd have 5 less yellow cards a season and surely climb 6 places in the league over night!

[Happy Face 29]

I'm working off percentages on Appearances though.

 

The ratios for even those players aren't as bad.

 

I see :

 

Alex Song - 46 apps , 13 yellows - 28%

Gareth Barry 10 yellows 1 red - 51 apps. - 22%

Lee Cattermole 27, 13 - this one is the same as Tiote, but Tiote is far more talented, which is why I'm pissed with him - 48%

 

Same year

 

Tiote 28 , 14 - 50% .

 

Thats twice as many as everyone we've mentioned other than Lee Cattershite.

 

<end statto>

 

These numbers are all over the shop really.

 

You're including dozens of slow paced champions league games for the top players. Even the PL games they are in is as part of a top passing side, where they have 60% of possession.

 

Tiote gets more yellows than we'd like. Some of them silly.

 

He's still the best defensive midfielder at the club and I'd rather he played 30 games, missing 4 through suspension than have Perch play 34.

[scoobos 297]

Well I dont see them as wild - they are a fair comparison over appearances, and also we were saying a few posts back that he'd never had back to back yellows, when in fact he's more likely TO get back to back yellows than not.

 

Premiership only would show a similar problem compared to his peers.

Maybe its me, but I don't feel any pride watching players like Tiote - he's a liability in my mind, and we haven't even mentioned his shoot from stupid distances wastes of possession either.

 

Only time will tell I suppose.

Edited February 15, 2013 by scoobos

[Happy Face 29]

Well I dont see them as wild - they are a fair comparison over appearances, and also we were saying a few posts back that he'd never had back to back yellows, when in fact he's more likely TO get back to back yellows than not.

 

Premiership only would show a similar problem compared to his peers.

Maybe its me, but I don't feel any pride watching players like Tiote - he's a liability in my mind, and we haven't even mentioned his shoot from stupid distances wastes of possession either.

 

Only time will tell I suppose.

 

I said he's not had back to back yellows this season and he hasn't....because his discipline is improving every year.

 

He's been booked twice in his last 8 league appearances. That puts him right there with the likes of Parker, Toure etc with one booking in 4 games according to your numbers.

 

He got one booking in 4 throughout the ACON too.

 

I expect the stick he got after the red card against Sunderland, despite not agreeing with it, Can't see why he would be getting stick for his discipline right now though.