ChezGiven 0 Posted January 12, 2012 Share Posted January 12, 2012 Its irrelevant really what happens to the money if the player coming in to replace the outgoing player is better. However, for those who obsess over these things, the question 'where has the money gone?' can be very simply answered, as i have time and again on here: into the black hole that was our debt mountain. The reality is a lot more complicated as a business with no credit and cash flow issues creating short-term credit needs due to the size of its operational costs, needs capital all over the place. It bolis down to this - we made a profit in January 2010 of £30m, we made losses of > £30m for the previous 2 seasons. If we had been breaking even every season for the past 10 years, then we should expect to see all of this money, as we were making losses, we need to pay for these. I agree, but it's very difficult to consistantly sell high and buy low with good results. Arsenal have managed to do it incredibly well over the years but I don't know of any other club in England that has pulled that off over a considerable length of time. Anyway, I really think the important thing is to enjoy what is happening while it lasts. There'll be plenty of twists and turns this season but I really believe that we will finish 7th. There's a decent chance that this will mean Europe and this should be seen as good progress considering where we have been in recent years (under both Ashley and the latter days of Shepherd). Exactly but if by some miracle you were able to always buy cheap players, develop them into superstars, sell them for a fortune (near their peak) and pick up replacements that are even better then the money is irrelevant. For someone who takes the piss out of people waving balance sheets above their heads in support of the club, LM isnt half fixated on that money. Money is not the metric, development of the playing squad is. Who here now disagrees with me that this season's playing squad is better than last years? No one. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Happy Face 29 Posted January 12, 2012 Share Posted January 12, 2012 Putting Carrol to one side though have we really sold high bought low? Can't remember all the figured but... Santon for Enrique. About the same Cabaye was more than Nolan Obertan / Ben Arfa more than Barton But apart from....Carroll....Milner....Given....Martins...Bassong.....what have the Romans ever done for us? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ChezGiven 0 Posted January 12, 2012 Share Posted January 12, 2012 Some players sold for less than they were bought, some for the same, some for more. Thats some model you've got there HF. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LeazesMag 0 Posted January 12, 2012 Share Posted January 12, 2012 Putting Carrol to one side though have we really sold high bought low? Can't remember all the figured but... Santon for Enrique. About the same Cabaye was more than Nolan Obertan / Ben Arfa more than Barton Add Milner, N'Zogbia, Given, Bassong for starters.Giving Barton away for free was a disgrace. A couple of good signings is neither here nor there, the fact is that the money for these players is pocketed, and the club are not attempting to build on its core of best players, whoever they happen to be at the time, which is why Enrique wanted to go for starters. Players aren't stupid, this is why they want to go and why others will continue to go, this policy of sell and replace rather than build gets you nowhere in the long term. I really don't see why you and others don't get this. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ChezGiven 0 Posted January 12, 2012 Share Posted January 12, 2012 Players are stupid and Enrique looks like a mug. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Happy Face 29 Posted January 12, 2012 Share Posted January 12, 2012 Some players sold for less than they were bought, some for the same, some for more. Thats some model you've got there HF. Ashley sold them all for more than he paid Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LeazesMag 0 Posted January 12, 2012 Share Posted January 12, 2012 Players are stupid and Enrique looks like a mug. but they know the good clubs who strive to be successful and the ones that do not. Especially during the early and peak years of their career. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ChezGiven 0 Posted January 12, 2012 Share Posted January 12, 2012 Some players sold for less than they were bought, some for the same, some for more. Thats some model you've got there HF. Ashley sold them all for more than he paid Carroll more, Enrique same, Barton/Nolan less. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Happy Face 29 Posted January 12, 2012 Share Posted January 12, 2012 Some players sold for less than they were bought, some for the same, some for more. Thats some model you've got there HF. Ashley sold them all for more than he paid Carroll more, Enrique same, Barton/Nolan less. But I never mentioned any of those players. CT did and asked if there were any examples other than Carroll of profit made. I provided them. Keep up fella. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ChezGiven 0 Posted January 12, 2012 Share Posted January 12, 2012 Some players sold for less than they were bought, some for the same, some for more. Thats some model you've got there HF. Ashley sold them all for more than he paid Carroll more, Enrique same, Barton/Nolan less. But I never mentioned any of those players. CT did and asked if there were any examples other than Carroll of profit made. I provided them. Keep up fella. I'm referring to your underlying narrative, which is as ever unsupported by the facts. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jaythesouthernmag 0 Posted January 12, 2012 Share Posted January 12, 2012 Had we not being through "those years" with Ashley I think some would look at how we are currently run, bearing in mind the reality of today's football world, and come to the conclusion we have never been run better. Every aspect of the club from financial to youth to backroom to management to quality on the pitch seems excellent. Sure we will sadly have to sacrifice the odd Tiote along the way, but there isn't really any other way to do it these days unless you bag an Arab. Comparing the football financial reality of today to the times of SJH is just stupidity. Worlds apart. sadly, this is where you and others like you fall down. What I say is correct. There is no reason whatsover why we should behave like Bolton, Blackburn etc rather than the likes of Liverpool, Arsenal and Spurs etc, like we did previously. I think its the Arsenal/Spurs model that we are trying to follow(not throwing mega bucks at players) and running the club within its means. It's taken Spurs a while to get there and they have sold big players on the way. Arsenal are finding it difficult to sustain a challenge against the big 3 with all the resources they have. This is only our second season back in the premier league and a few of the so called experts tipped us to go down so last seasons finish and our current situation points to a degree of progress so far but there is a very long way to go and I'm in no doubt some of our best players will be sold if very big offers come and until we are in a position to turn them down it will continue. The only way to keep players is the City/Chelsea way of paying massive wages coupled with massive investment. The Man Utd way of doing it by reputation and consistency. Even Arsenal can't hold on to their best players in this crazy market Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Happy Face 29 Posted January 12, 2012 Share Posted January 12, 2012 (edited) Some players sold for less than they were bought, some for the same, some for more. Thats some model you've got there HF. Ashley sold them all for more than he paid Carroll more, Enrique same, Barton/Nolan less. But I never mentioned any of those players. CT did and asked if there were any examples other than Carroll of profit made. I provided them. Keep up fella. I'm referring to your underlying narrative, which is as ever unsupported by the facts. "Underlying narrative"? I think you misread the very narrow point I was making in response to CTs query Edited January 12, 2012 by Happy Face Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ChezGiven 0 Posted January 12, 2012 Share Posted January 12, 2012 Some players sold for less than they were bought, some for the same, some for more. Thats some model you've got there HF. Ashley sold them all for more than he paid Carroll more, Enrique same, Barton/Nolan less. But I never mentioned any of those players. CT did and asked if there were any examples other than Carroll of profit made. I provided them. Keep up fella. I'm referring to your underlying narrative, which is as ever unsupported by the facts. "Underlying narrative"? I think you misread the very narrow point I was making in response to CTs query That may be true, I dont read the post, just the poster. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Fish 9240 Posted January 12, 2012 Share Posted January 12, 2012 Spurs got their money back on Bent though tbf, Fish. More down to the foolishness of mackems then any shrewd business on Spurs part imo. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest alex Posted January 12, 2012 Share Posted January 12, 2012 (edited) Spurs got their money back on Bent though tbf, Fish. More down to the foolishness of mackems then any shrewd business on Spurs part imo. He's got a fantastic scoring record in the Premier League, whatever you might think about him as an all-round player, and the mackems subsequently made a profit on what they paid Tottenham. I'd also suggest he wasn't a flop in his time there anyway. Edited January 12, 2012 by alex Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andrew 4278 Posted January 12, 2012 Share Posted January 12, 2012 Unfortunately, I don't think anybody can call anything progress until I see the club striving to keep its best players and back its manager instead of selling them and pocketing the cash. my god, the wording of that sentence is mind boggling you really have just said that no one can consider us as making progress until you're satisfied we are you are actually insane Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dr Gloom 20169 Posted January 12, 2012 Share Posted January 12, 2012 (edited) fucking hell, villa have spent 14m a season since 06! and the mackems almost 13m. i suppose that proves that backing your manager is no guarantee of success. obviously it helps if you have an owner prepared to spend. good judgement is priceless and rare asset among owners too. our last lot, for all the money they threw at it, constantly sacked managers in august or september after letting them spend money in the window, essentially fucking up the whole year. plus they made massive mistakes like hiring souness, roeder and allardyce and sacking robson. the best thing to hope for is some super rich arabs but even then it's no guarantee of proper success. look at man city's return since the takeover. pretty poor so far given the cash they've thrown at it. Edited January 12, 2012 by Dr Gloom Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest alex Posted January 12, 2012 Share Posted January 12, 2012 Not spending money pretty much guarantees non-success though Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LeazesMag 0 Posted January 12, 2012 Share Posted January 12, 2012 Unfortunately, I don't think anybody can call anything progress until I see the club striving to keep its best players and back its manager instead of selling them and pocketing the cash. my god, the wording of that sentence is mind boggling you really have just said that no one can consider us as making progress until you're satisfied we are you are actually insane unfortunately, its completely sane and realistic. What it means, is look underneath the surface and beyond a small run of results, in essence. If you have any sort of idea at all about how a club that aims to be successful is set up, then it is easy enough to understand. Progress is only, and only, seeing the club set up attempting to achieve it. Currently it is nothing of the kind, it has became a selling club that pockets the cash from the sale of its best players. If you think THAT is progress, it's you who is insane. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LeazesMag 0 Posted January 12, 2012 Share Posted January 12, 2012 fucking hell, villa have spent 14m a season since 06! and the mackems almost 13m. i suppose that proves that backing your manager is no guarantee of success. obviously it helps if you have an owner prepared to spend. good judgement is priceless and rare asset among owners too. our last lot, for all the money they threw at it, constantly sacked managers in august or september after letting them spend money in the window, essentially fucking up the whole year. plus they made massive mistakes like hiring souness, roeder and allardyce and sacking robson. the best thing to hope for is some super rich arabs but even then it's no guarantee of proper success. look at man city's return since the takeover. pretty poor so far given the cash they've thrown at it. rubbish. Are you saying the "timing" was wrong when they sacked Gullit and replaced him with Robson, then saying the timing [also at the start of the season] was also wrong when they sacked Robson ? By the way, ManU appointed Alex Ferguson in October and Arsenal appointed Arsene Wenger in the November. Were they "bad timing" ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Fish 9240 Posted January 12, 2012 Share Posted January 12, 2012 Leazes, you've stated before that you don't think we'll be challenging Man City or Man U or their ilk, so, surely aiming for European competition is your ambition? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LeazesMag 0 Posted January 12, 2012 Share Posted January 12, 2012 Not spending money pretty much guarantees non-success though pretty much so, which sits right alongside selling your best players and pocketing the cash, rather than build on your best core players. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LeazesMag 0 Posted January 12, 2012 Share Posted January 12, 2012 Leazes, you've stated before that you don't think we'll be challenging Man City or Man U or their ilk, so, surely aiming for European competition is your ambition? Not selling your best players to Liverpool, Spurs and Villa would be a decent start, and backing your manager instead of pocketing the cash from the sales would help too. I've stated my case, and I'm sticking to it. The club is behaving like a selling club, and has been heading this way for 4 years. A one off european place, if achieved which is unlikely, is only an upward blip because the whole setup of the club is not conducive to achieve longer term high league positions and aim for those top spots and try to stay there. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andrew 4278 Posted January 12, 2012 Share Posted January 12, 2012 Unfortunately, I don't think anybody can call anything progress until I see the club striving to keep its best players and back its manager instead of selling them and pocketing the cash. my god, the wording of that sentence is mind boggling you really have just said that no one can consider us as making progress until you're satisfied we are you are actually insane unfortunately, its completely sane and realistic. What it means, is look underneath the surface and beyond a small run of results, in essence. If you have any sort of idea at all about how a club that aims to be successful is set up, then it is easy enough to understand. Progress is only, and only, seeing the club set up attempting to achieve it. Currently it is nothing of the kind, it has became a selling club that pockets the cash from the sale of its best players. If you think THAT is progress, it's you who is insane. im not arguing that with you, what Im arguing is the assertion that you have got the only, single, sole valid opinion and that any that don't line up with it are inherently wrong simply by the virtue of not being yours is it delusions or granduer, megalomania or narcissism? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Christmas Tree 4005 Posted January 12, 2012 Share Posted January 12, 2012 Leazes, do you jump up and cheer excitedly when we score or remind all around you that scoring on it's own, isn't progression. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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