Margaret Thatcher

[Christmas Tree 4003]

You don't compete on price alone. There are other ways to encourage people to invest in your country than the cost of labour, especially when there is the infrastructure and skill level already there.

 

That's just government bluff. Yes you may encourage the odd deal here with a few hand outs, special deals or as a way into Europe, but big manufacturing can now be replicated virtually anywhere on the planet and won't be returning here in my lifetime.

[Park Life 71]

It's not about labour costs, it's about profit margins.

 

Apple might have a 30% smaller profit margin if they manufactured in California, but by god they would win over a whole new segement of customer loyalty.

 

Their profits are primarily based around the numbers they shift anyway.

 

I personally believe that two Apple items side by side on a shelf (one made in California and the other in China) and the home made one costing 20-30% more, the home made one would give the other a run for its money. The Germans look for things made in Germany and don't mind paying a premium for their goods as they know the quality is better and that they will certainly last longer.

 

Your Taxi is made in England is it not??

Edited May 11, 2012 by Park Life

[RobH 0]

That's just government bluff. Yes you may encourage the odd deal here with a few hand outs, special deals or as a way into Europe, but big manufacturing can now be replicated virtually anywhere on the planet and won't be returning here in my lifetime.

No it isn't. There are numerous examples of industries that in produce certain places because of either a skilled workforce being available or an infrastructure being in place or indeed both. No idea how what I said had anything to do with deals or handouts, I'm talking about alternative economies of scale to low labour costs.

[Christmas Tree 4003]

Labour was shifted abroad in the 80's when multinationals were making huge profits. THAT is when labour costs became AN ISSUE. Companies like APPLE that make huge profits AND use cheap labour abroad should be nuked.

 

Exactly. As soon as China opened the doors to foreign investment / ownership the shit was on route to the fan.

[Gemmill 35528]

Don't talk to ME about the Chinese.

[Christmas Tree 4003]

Germany is a classic example where a lot of quality and pricey products are made at home and companies continue to pay fair wages AND MAKE A PROFIT.

 

Absolute bollocks to compare Germany with the UK. Totally different economies and government set ups.

 

Maybe Germans would prefer some industries not to be subsidised and instead have a free NHS like us.

 

They also had / have a much better customer base around them.

 

Anyone who tries to compare the two does themselves a great disservice.

[Christmas Tree 4003]

exactly. germany is a great example of the kind of economy we could have been.

 

Bollocks.

[Christmas Tree 4003]

No it isn't. There are numerous examples of industries that in produce certain places because of either a skilled workforce being available or an infrastructure being in place or indeed both. No idea how what I said had anything to do with deals or handouts, I'm talking about alternative economies of scale to low labour costs.

 

Im sorry like but we were / are talking about large scale manufacturing industry. These are not dna scientists we are talking about these are welders and assembly operatives and these type of jobs can and are being replicated everywhere.

 

You only need look at the amount of outsourced english call centres to see how ridiculous times are.

 

Big industry on the scale that was subsidised pre 1980 will never return here purely because of labour costs.

 

If you can give me any scenario where you think it will be cheaper for ships to be made on the Tyne rather than in China or Vietnam then I would love to here it.

[Meenzer 14136]

Again, the point is that "cheaper" isn't everything.

 

Bloody long last word on the matter, btw.

[Kevin S. Assilleekunt 1]

Germany is set up to be an economic powerhouse because of its location.

[RobH 0]

Im sorry like but we were / are talking about large scale manufacturing industry. These are not dna scientists we are talking about these are welders and assembly operatives and these type of jobs can and are being replicated everywhere.

 

You only need look at the amount of outsourced english call centres to see how ridiculous times are.

 

Big industry on the scale that was subsidised pre 1980 will never return here purely because of labour costs.

 

If you can give me any scenario where you think it will be cheaper for ships to be made on the Tyne rather than in China or Vietnam then I would love to here it.

What Meenzer said. I'm not discussing this any more.

[Christmas Tree 4003]

Again, the point is that "cheaper" isn't everything.

 

Bloody long last word on the matter, btw.

 

Same question to you as the one RobH is avoiding.

 

And the last word thing was on politics. This is economics

[Meenzer 14136]

It's not avoidance, it's just awareness that there's no point in even discussing it. You think there's no comparability between Germany and the UK, I think comparing them is absolutely vital. Ergo: impasse. Besides, it's Friday night and you and I would both be better served by kicking back with a Hefeweizen, another fine German export product.

[Christmas Tree 4003]

It's not avoidance, it's just awareness that there's no point in even discussing it. You think there's no comparability between Germany and the UK, I think comparing them is absolutely vital. Ergo: impasse. Besides, it's Friday night and you and I would both be better served by kicking back with a Hefeweizen, another fine German export product.

 

Im on the Leffes myself.

[Meenzer 14136]

Im on the Leffes myself.

 

Ach, that's basically German with the flag the wrong way up.

[The Fish 9235]

Don't talk to ME about being hung like the Chinese Mouse.

 

[Kid Dynamite 6090]

 

Aye, it was either go to Uni or join the list of mates at home on the dole because successive governments of both parties have treated the area like a piece of shit. Had no choice. Like I said i'm no CT about the situation but wishing death is still ott.

 

Fuck the government and it's higher education, where's all the jobs! You got a student loan by any chance?

[CleeToonFan 1]

Fuck the government and it's higher education, where's all the jobs! You got a student loan by any chance?

I always wanted to go to university, but university shouldn't just be for anyone and everyone and many of my friends would have rather gone straight into employment aye, apologies that not everyone wants to go into higher education. There's colleges that offer out university sanctioned degrees to almost anyone who applies, diluting higher education and meaning many people do it purely because they can't get a job aye. Yes I do but the new loans don't come in till next year, even if it didn't it wouldn't make much different to me (the poorest don't have to pay any more than they would under the old rules, loads only rioted for the fun.)

[PaddockLad 14910]

Im sorry like but we were / are talking about large scale manufacturing industry. These are not dna scientists we are talking about these are welders and assembly operatives and these type of jobs can and are being replicated everywhere.

 

You only need look at the amount of outsourced english call centres to see how ridiculous times are.

 

Big industry on the scale that was subsidised pre 1980 will never return here purely because of labour costs.

 

If you can give me any scenario where you think it will be cheaper for ships to be made on the Tyne rather than in China or Vietnam then I would love to here it.

 

It is cheaper you're right. But what is the value to the British economy (and indeed to British people) of keeping a large manufacturing base in this country? When the last yards on the Wear closed in the early 90s to be fair to the Tories the disaster was softened by the deal to bring Nissan to Washington. There were one or two other things like this, like Toyota in Derby, which is the only major city in the UK where the local authority isn't the biggest local employer and thats because of Rolls Royce, Bombadier (although thats a different story now because of the sheer short sightedness of the present government, the minister who gave the contract for the Crossrail trains to Siemens admitted he hadnt taken into considration the cost of job losses to feeder companies and the subsequent huge benefit payments required to be paid to those laid off instead of tax incomes paid in to the exchequer by the same people) and Toyota themselves. All good businesses,and all with labour intensive manufacturing plants at their core. This is what can be acheived if you make even a small effort to create jobs and keep the exisiting businesses vialble.

 

But in general the jobs created to replace those lost in our industrial heartlands in the last 30 years have been on a tiny scale to what was required to maintain those communities as decent places to live and bring families up. No government of any hue in that time has given even the tiniest shit while giving bullshitting lip service to "expanding the industrial base, exports etc",and then continuing to complain about mounting welfare costs. A fuckin ludicrous situation. The horse has bolted long ago on that one though, there are estates now where hardly anyone has worked in around 3 decades and they are hideous places to live. Tragic. You appear to support this "common sense" approach to business i.e. cheapest is best, but what is the long term cost to society in general? If the Tories had gone for broke and given even more support to foreign companies in the early 80s instead of leaving everything to the market it may have cost the country a bit of money and be against their core values, but we may all live in a better place today.

[Park Life 71]

Govt isn't driving incentivised job creation that might be less competitive cause business only wants to maxmise profits. Would a german or French contract for infrastructure development go outside those countries? Never.

[ewerk 26807]

Apple might have a 30% smaller profit margin if they manufactured in California, but by god they would win over a whole new segement of customer loyalty.

 

Their profits are primarily based around the numbers they shift anyway.

 

I personally believe that two Apple items side by side on a shelf (one made in California and the other in China) and the home made one costing 20-30% more, the home made one would give the other a run for its money.

 

Complete rubbish.

[NJS 4007]

Well Apple fans are already willing to pay a "premium" for the logo so I don't think its complete rubbish.

 

 

The point is people like CT think that the more companies make profits the better it is. But since most shareholders are rich and don't trickle down the dividends anyway, it all ends up being pointless. As I mentioned before British compamies are supposed to now hold £750bn in cash reserves - money just sitting there which can't be for a rainy day because its biblically pissing down at the moment.

 

If Apple did say halve their profits (to just the 1 or 2 billion) by manufacturing in the US the knock on for their economy would be fucking massive. It's the woirship of profit above all else thats become so prevalent in the last 30 years and for which Thatcher bears a lot of the "blame" that is the main problem in the world.

[Christmas Tree 4003]

 

It is cheaper you're right. But what is the value to the British economy (and indeed to British people) of keeping a large manufacturing base in this country? When the last yards on the Wear closed in the early 90s to be fair to the Tories the disaster was softened by the deal to bring Nissan to Washington. There were one or two other things like this, like Toyota in Derby, which is the only major city in the UK where the local authority isn't the biggest local employer and thats because of Rolls Royce, Bombadier (although thats a different story now because of the sheer short sightedness of the present government, the minister who gave the contract for the Crossrail trains to Siemens admitted he hadnt taken into considration the cost of job losses to feeder companies and the subsequent huge benefit payments required to be paid to those laid off instead of tax incomes paid in to the exchequer by the same people) and Toyota themselves. All good businesses,and all with labour intensive manufacturing plants at their core. This is what can be acheived if you make even a small effort to create jobs and keep the exisiting businesses vialble.

 

But in general the jobs created to replace those lost in our industrial heartlands in the last 30 years have been on a tiny scale to what was required to maintain those communities as decent places to live and bring families up. No government of any hue in that time has given even the tiniest shit while giving bullshitting lip service to "expanding the industrial base, exports etc",and then continuing to complain about mounting welfare costs. A fuckin ludicrous situation. The horse has bolted long ago on that one though, there are estates now where hardly anyone has worked in around 3 decades and they are hideous places to live. Tragic. You appear to support this "common sense" approach to business i.e. cheapest is best, but what is the long term cost to society in general? If the Tories had gone for broke and given even more support to foreign companies in the early 80s instead of leaving everything to the market it may have cost the country a bit of money and be against their core values, but we may all live in a better place today.

 

I didn't say I agree with cheapest is best I said it was inevitable once China opened it's doors. That's just ugly old competition that we are all guilty of.

 

You wouldn't pay more for a identical product of identical quality.

 

Started of with cheap tat, then electronics and even the industry I was from, furniture. Cheaper to make and transport a bulky settee and chairs from china than Newcastle.

 

You are right btw that every government has given this lip service and done nowt about it but that's more because they cant do anything about it.

[ewerk 26807]

Things were always heading that way though with the rise of MNCs, increased global trade and the need for PLCs to deliver continually growing profits to their shareholders.

 

Thatcher couldn't have stopped it if she tried, it was the brutal way in which she handled it that was the problem.

[PaddockLad 14910]

Don't agree with the last bit, and as I said there are examples of where incentives for foreign investment have worked very well in this country. There just isn't the will to do it because governments now leave things completely to the market. China hadn't opened its doors in 81 or 91 when Nissan opened and now its the most efficient car plant un Europe. China has had an huge effect for a decade no doubt, but the 25 years before that were a massive missed oppurtunity in this country.