US election 2016

[Happy Face 29]

Moving the prison to the US would have made a massive difference though. It wouldn't have been a case of the same shit in a different location.

 

And if you want a suggestion, he hasn't had much luck in getting gun control laws passed.

 

 

Gun Control. The gun control legislation sponsored by Sens. Joe Manchin, D-W.Va., and Pat Toomey, R-Pa., backfired in the Senate after Republicans filibustered the measure. The bipartisan bill would have significantly expanded background checks in gun sales but fell shy of the 60-vote threshold to end debate, receiving only 54 votes. "

 

I don't think that Obama wants to be the black president that took America's guns off them. That's not to say I necessarily think he could have pushed it through even if he really wanted. He had as little chance as any previous president, but will be well aware of the backlash that would generate.

 

A white woman republican president will have to do that one.

[Dr Gloom 19838]

Do we disagree that Russia and Saddam's stances on terrorism are effective? Without Saddam, we've created ISIS. Russia is a different consideration since they're actually fighting against US interests, but I'd have more faith in them eliminating terrorism than the US. With that said, it'd be bloody and horrifying. It'd work, though. NB - this is not an endorsement of the action, more a statement of my interpretation of reality.

 

Dictatorships can be much more efficient than democracies, so we might find ourselves kowtowing to many countries that are set up in such a way in due course. We already are with China.

 

As a general point, this thread has been pretty informative over the past page or so! If Trump is elected, it'll be interesting to see whether Parky's view that he'll be constrained, or HF and Gloom's views that he'll be rampant, will come to pass.

 

 

 

I sort of see this point, and agree that he's been a capable administrator compared to some, but he's still part of the problem. The centre needs to tackle its demons, and it's obstinately refusing to do so. Until it does, they're going to deliver us into the hands of people like Trump.

Incidentally, are you saying that the Arab world isn't ready for democracy and their people require strong man dictators to maintain the rule of law?

[Rayvin 4964]

Well okay my post was over the top but if you read HF's post again you'll see it contained barbed criticism of Obama which cast him as an imperialist warmonger and suggested moral equivalence with Trump. Subtle, but as with most his posts it's there. You of course have been less subtle in declaring your overt support for Trump.

 

How many deaths, to date, is Trump responsible for? Surely, objectively, Trump is the less morally questionable person, at this point? It's our ridiculous interpretation of which actions are acceptable and which are not that makes it look like he's worse. Obama's actions are all part of the plan - even if the plan is horrifying, nobody panics. </joker>

 

Trump may be worse, but in terms of being responsible for civilian casualties, he isn't yet.

 

Not really sure where I'm going with this other than to be surprised we don't consider politicians blowing people up to be a morally questionable issue.

[Renton 17825]

How many deaths, to date, is Trump responsible for? Surely, objectively, Trump is the less morally questionable person, at this point? It's our ridiculous interpretation of which actions are acceptable and which are not that makes it look like he's worse. Obama's actions are all part of the plan - even if the plan is horrifying, nobody panics. </joker>

 

Trump may be worse, but in terms of being responsible for civilian casualties, he isn't yet.

 

Not really sure where I'm going with this other than to be surprised we don't consider politicians blowing people up to be a morally questionable issue.

Don't you think clinton and Obama derive some kind of pleasure out of the ME conflict or is it possible they do what they do with good intentions, regardless of whether those actions are correct or not? It should be obvious Trump is a psychopath without giving him the means to prove it imo.

[Dr Gloom 19838]

it's truly bizarre that some of the most left leaning posters on here seem to be defending trump

[Renton 17825]

I reckon there are a few bodies propping up the concrete car parks of Trump's casinos too.

[Dr Gloom 19838]

he's a pussy-grabbing egomaniac, with authoritarian impulses who can't accept any criticism or take any responsibility for any of his actions and who holds decades long grudges and personal vendettas. all the qualities you look for in the leader of the free world. 

Edited November 2, 2016 by Dr Gloom

[Happy Face 29]

it's truly bizarre that some of the most left leaning posters on here seem to be defending trump

Remarkable. Like saying Farage would be no worse than Brown

[Rayvin 4964]

it's truly bizarre that some of the most left leaning posters on here seem to be defending trump

 

I'm not defending Trump. Trump is a bad person. I'm trying to assist in the point being made about how Obama is ALSO a bad person (or at least part of a political system that makes him bad). And am incredulous that mass killings dressed up as political initiatives are considered acceptable by so many of you.

 

If you guys speak for the centreground then we really are fucked, because you're willfully failing to see the problems with the establishment, how they've given rise to people like Trump, and the problems they cause for so many people. Instead of working out how to make things better, the centre is doubling down and pointing at the 'lefties' for letting through right wing shit like Brexit by not 'standing united with the centre', and looking on in dismay at people like Trump, wringing their hands and wondering how it came to this?

 

It came to this because your fucked up political system failed people all over the place, frequently blows the fuck out of civilians in other countries in the name of profits and oil while leaving destabilising power vacuums in its wake, and cares not one bit about the consequences of such actions, beyond what it has to in order to be re-elected. It was inevitable that a backlash would come, and whining about it now isn't helping anyone. We need solutions. The right are offering solutions. The left are offering solutions. The centre isn't.

 

And you know, I've voted for the centre - so this is as much my fuck up as yours. But the events we've seen over the past few years should be eye opening and I despair that they aren't. You guys are tackling the symptoms, not the disease.

[aimaad22 3472]

You do know Iran had to overthrow an American backed dictator not so long ago?

 

Assad was an eye doctor from London who has won two elections he isn't a 'dictator' and he doesn't have any WMD. He arrived in zone where there was already a repressive state apparatus in place.

 

I don't know what you don't understand about regime change and American hegemony that has laid waste to most of the middle east and overturned secular countries and replaced them with chaos and extremism. ISIS started in Iraq. They got a lot of their early arms from Libyan arms caches. The way forward in the world is to bring change gradually with diplomatic and financial pressure and rewards. Not go in and wipe out whole nations. The fact that this needs explaining to you boggles my mind in all honesty.

 

I also know real Palestinians and Afghans and Syrians I'm not sure what point you are making there.

 

You lot still going on about this?

You're still trying to explain that laying waste to an entire country is not always the best way of dealing with oppressive regimes

 

Disturbing that the human lady candidate is so unhinged Trump actually looks like a safer candidate, in terms of foreign policy at least.

[ChezGiven 0]

I know Obama likes to quote that number, but it means nothing on it's own.

 

How many bills are blocked in a normal presidency?

 

That depends on the structure of Congress. Have a look at the following 

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_Presidents_and_control_of_Congress

 

Then try and understand the difference between Senate and House. Then work out how much control Obama had. 

 

Some but spent 6 years with inability to implement Bills with majority in the House. Problematic. 

[ChezGiven 0]

It's somewhat true, to a small degree.

 

https://www.govtrack.us/congress/bills/statistics

 

Obama has certainly enacted fewer laws than in previous administrations, but that follows a downward trend that goes back to the 70s.

 

Less than half the number of laws enacted in the 1977 Congress (804) were enacted in the  first Bush Congrress of 2001 (383) for example.  Obama's first 2 years saw more laws enacted than Bush's too (385).

 

More legislation failed in the 97/98, 99/00, 05/06 and 07/09 congress than in three quarters of those under Obama.

 

Pure numbers bore people though, if there were a multitude of examples of high profile changes that Obama was prevented from implementing they could be reeled off.  There's not though.

 

If anything the presidents are the ones with all the power.  They get to veto bills that could become law.  Bill Clinton used that power more than any other president (36 times).  Obama has used it as many times as Bush (12) before his presidency ends.

 

Meaningless without an understanding of the House majorities. 

[Dr Gloom 19838]

I'm not defending Trump. Trump is a bad person. I'm trying to assist in the point being made about how Obama is ALSO a bad person (or at least part of a political system that makes him bad). And am incredulous that mass killings dressed up as political initiatives are considered acceptable by so many of you.

 

If you guys speak for the centreground then we really are fucked, because you're willfully failing to see the problems with the establishment, how they've given rise to people like Trump, and the problems they cause for so many people. Instead of working out how to make things better, the centre is doubling down and pointing at the 'lefties' for letting through right wing shit like Brexit by not 'standing united with the centre', and looking on in dismay at people like Trump, wringing their hands and wondering how it came to this?

 

It came to this because your fucked up political system failed people all over the place, frequently blows the fuck out of civilians in other countries in the name of profits and oil while leaving destabilising power vacuums in its wake, and cares not one bit about the consequences of such actions, beyond what it has to in order to be re-elected. It was inevitable that a backlash would come, and whining about it now isn't helping anyone. We need solutions. The right are offering solutions. The left are offering solutions. The centre isn't.

 

And you know, I've voted for the centre - so this is as much my fuck up as yours. But the events we've seen over the past few years should be eye opening and I despair that they aren't. You guys are tackling the symptoms, not the disease.

 

i don't own the political system man

 

i share your frustrations with a lot of it, but it's a bit rich pointing the finger at me, or the likes of me, for the likes of trump. i consider myself to be a leftie, for what it's worth. 

 

what is it you propose that the centre ground does to slow the rise of populists like trump, and farage on this side of the atlantic? the language they speak is appealing to a middle class who have seen living standards plummet. i actually think a lot of hillary's initiatives would go some way to reducing inequality in the states, quite the opposite to what trump is proposing. but unfortunately i don't think there is miracle cure to globalisation.

Edited November 2, 2016 by Dr Gloom

[ewerk 26441]

Toontastic: Civil War

[Rayvin 4964]

i don't own the political system man

 

i share your frustrations with a lot of it, but it's a bit rich pointing the finger at me, or the likes of me, for the likes of trump. i consider myself to be a leftie, for what it's worth. 

 

what is it you propose that the centre ground does to slow the rise of populists like trump, and farage on this side of the atlantic? the language they speak is appealing to a middle class who have seen living standards plummet. i actually think a lot of hillary's initiatives would go some way to reducing inequality in the states, quite the opposite to what trump is proposing. but unfortunately i don't think there is miracle cure to globalisation.

 

On the 'pointing the finger' bit, I was responding in turn really; you did accuse us of being Trump defenders. There was a post on here last night as well that made it clear that, should Trump win, that this was HF's fault. This is not the left's fault, is the point I'm making. It's the centre's.

 

What can the centre do? I guess there's two different issues here. First is that the centre as a reference point in the political left/right balance needs to move left. People need a harder choice between the right and something else. The risk there is that more might choose the right, but actually I think we're split on the left. Corbyn, had he not become such a toxic issue, would have allowed for this. In my view, he was torn down by the centre wing of Labour - who I feel would prefer the idea that the centre wing of the Tories are in power. As long as it's the centre, and Neoliberal.

 

I'll post about my thoughts on more broad solutions a bit later, I'm struggling to get them down coherently while at work. Needless to say though, I don't have all the answers.

[Rayvin 4964]

Toontastic: Civil War

 

 

Return of CT to be the sequel. He'll bring balance to the politics.

[aimaad22 3472]

 

Return of CT to be the sequel. He'll bring balance to the politics.

 

He was disturbingly sensible in the Syria thread the last time he came back so we cant count on that either.

[Dr Gloom 19838]

[tweet]

[/tweet]

 

 

 

Edited November 2, 2016 by Dr Gloom

[Park Life 70]

Polls tightening again today. I'm gonna call Florida for Trump. Think the polls have been wrong about Florida from the start and although Trump might be down on numbers I think more of his vote will turn out. If he takes Florida he'll need to get the momentum of Nevada and Michigan where it is close.

 

I do hope for Clinton's sake that the polls haven't been rigged thus far to influence voting patterns. It is accepted that people who aren't sure tend to go with who the polls say is in the lead.....Now if that has been the case then a lot of the polls will just be wrong.

Edited November 3, 2016 by Park Life

[Kid Dynamite 5939]

Polls tightening again today. I'm gonna call Florida for Trump. Think the polls have been wrong about Florida from the start and although Trump might be down on numbers I think more of his vote will turn out. If he takes Florida he'll need to get the momentum of Nevada and Michigan where it is close.

 

I do hope for Clinton's sake that the polls haven't been rigged thus far to influence voting patterns. It is accepted that people who aren't sure tend to go with who the polls say is in the lead.....Now if that has been the case then a lot of the polls will just be wrong.

I'm still mates on Facebook with 2 lasses I know from Florida. Both are voting Trump

[Happy Face 29]

Broadly agree but Obama figures are skewed because he got a lot of 'small' things through and the larger ones like Obamacare ended up being nothing like what was initially intended. GOP got rid of the 'safe corridor' funding that would help insurance companies in danger of being overwhelmed etc...

 

http://www.thefiscaltimes.com/2015/12/17/Congress-Weakens-Obamacare-Limiting-Bailout-Funds-Insurers

 

 

American Jobs Act. In the minority, Republicans still shut down President Obama’s 2011 jobs plan. It would have imposed a 5.6-percent tax on all income over $1 million to pay for new “stimulus” spending by the government. The Democrats’ majority couldn’t pass the measure, which failed 50-49.

 

 

Cap and Trade. Democrats controlled both houses of Congress in 2010, but their “cap-and-trade” legislation stalled in the Senate. Republicans filibustered sweeping restrictions on the use of fossil fuels aimed at cutting carbon emissions and the measure failed to reach Obama’s desk

 

 

 Minimum Wage. Republicans launched a filibuster in 2014 to derail a Democrat proposal that would have mandated an across-the-board federal minimum wage of $10.10.

 

 

Paycheck Fairness Act. Republicans blocked the 2014 Paycheck Fairness Act four separate times. The bill would have leveled harsher penalties for discrimination and required employers to account for any pay gap between male and female employees. The bill never made it to a final vote, though, failing 52 to 40. 

 

 

The last thing I want to be doing is defending Obama up in here.

 

 

That depends on the structure of Congress. Have a look at the following 

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_Presidents_and_control_of_Congress

 

Then try and understand the difference between Senate and House. Then work out how much control Obama had. 

 

Some but spent 6 years with inability to implement Bills with majority in the House. Problematic. 

 

 

Meaningless without an understanding of the House majorities. 

 

So are you as unconcerned about a Trump victory as Parky, Chez, given the limits on presidential power that have so stifled Obama?

 

I understand that controlling both houses vests greater power obviously, and there are different permutations that come into play, but the examples provided by Parky include those when Democrats controlled both houses and were still stifled.

 

Personally I think that Trump would be vested with great power, as I believe Obama was. The fact that presidential power is being diminished by more partisan politics won't mitigate that, and only did for Obama to a marginally greater extent that it did his predecessors.

[ChezGiven 0]

So are you as unconcerned about a Trump victory as Parky, Chez, given the limits on presidential power that have so stifled Obama?

 

I understand that controlling both houses vests greater power obviously, and there are different permutations that come into play, but the examples provided by Parky include those when Democrats controlled both houses and were still stifled.

 

Personally I think that Trump would be vested with great power, as I believe Obama was. The fact that presidential power is being diminished by more partisan politics won't mitigate that, and only did for Obama to a marginally greater extent that it did his predecessors.

 

I know and work with people who are involved in the Trump campaign, i will be in the US for the election with some of these people and hear their arguments all the time. I dont think Trump would be complete disaster but i support Clinton as i find nothing in the whole email story that bothers me at all. That is a very objective point of view, if i was being selfish i would support Trump. 

 

Re: Obama I think you raise very decent and important points. Think we disagree on the how extended Obama's powers have been and for me you ignore his political strategy which, as the first black man to run the country, i think he had no choice but to pursue. My Republican friends even now call him out as the reason for the racial divisions in the country, even going as far to blame him for the racial disturbances after high profile deaths, citing persuasive statistics that black men arent more likely to be killed by Policemen. Hi bi-partisan strategy has led to a strong foreign policy and an inability to close Guantanamo in line with his promise. This has mitigated against those political divisions. 

[Happy Face 29]

I know and work with people who are involved in the Trump campaign, i will be in the US for the election with some of these people and hear their arguments all the time. 

 

 

I dont think Trump would be complete disaster but i support Clinton as i find nothing in the whole email story that bothers me at all. That is a very objective point of view, if i was being selfish i would support Trump. 

 

Re: Obama I think you raise very decent and important points. Think we disagree on the how extended Obama's powers have been and for me you ignore his political strategy which, as the first black man to run the country, i think he had no choice but to pursue. My Republican friends even now call him out as the reason for the racial divisions in the country, even going as far to blame him for the racial disturbances after high profile deaths, citing persuasive statistics that black men arent more likely to be killed by Policemen. Hi bi-partisan strategy has led to a strong foreign policy and an inability to close Guantanamo in line with his promise. This has mitigated against those political divisions. 

 

 

Aye, Obama has been praised to the hilt acoross the board for his foreign policy which has been entirely unhindered.  Also his war on whistle blowing.  He got a meaningful healthcare bill through where Bill (& Hilary) Clinton failed to.  Perhaps he learned lessons from their attempts and played up to the right "interests".  

 

Trump will be able to do a lot that the liberals hate.  If Trump were to get in and only continue what Obama did abroad the fury from the "liberal" media would be as harsh as it was for Bush.

[Gemmill 34606]

 

 

I know and work with people who are involved in the Trump campaign, i will be in the US for the election.

This is a very politician's way of saying you're working for his campaign. Has he grabbed you by the pussy yet?

[Alex 30452]

:lol: