Politics

[Howmanheyman 32790]

People will still vote for him. If circumstances allowed it, I'd definitely consider fucking off from this country, my home, because we're doomed to be ruled by the likes of Gove, Johnson and Rees-Mogg thanks to forelock tuggers up and down the land who either seem to be 'I'm alright, Jack, fuck you.' or 'I'm not alright, Jack, but I know my place, sah. Any more Latin for me, sah? It sounds very Oxford and Cambridge, if I may be so bold, sah?'

[Andrew 4720]

3 hours ago, Howmanheyman said:

People will still vote for him. If circumstances allowed it, I'd definitely consider fucking off from this country, my home, because we're doomed to be ruled by the likes of Gove, Johnson and Rees-Mogg thanks to forelock tuggers up and down the land who either seem to be 'I'm alright, Jack, fuck you.' or 'I'm not alright, Jack, but I know my place, sah. Any more Latin for me, sah? It sounds very Oxford and Cambridge, if I may be so bold, sah?'

 

 

It is a genuine consideration of mine now I am out of the country. I'll see brexit and, probably, the next GE unfold from afar and then see how shite a state the country is in.

[Andrew 4720]

Israel, they're not sold on this free speech malarkey, even when its in other countries they have no jurisdiction over  

 

https://www.theguardian.com/music/2018/oct/12/israel-fines-new-zealand-teenagers-18000-for-urging-lorde-concert-boycott

 

 

[Rayvin 5186]

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2018/oct/17/economic-lies-neoliberalism-taxpayers

 

This is a really good article. Since I know not everyone has time to read it, and because I think it's important, I'll summarise (though you'll doubtless get better info from the article itself).

 

1 - Privisation has failed as an economic strategy for maximising Britain's wealth potential.

 

2 - The IMF published a report (ignored by the BBC it seems, along with the government) that looked at 31 nations including many of our European partners, and found that Britain had the weakest economic position of all of them with the exception of Portugal. This was down to the fact that we have been selling off public assets in such a way that we have £5tn liabilities, and only £3tn assets. Gambia and Kenya were included amongst countries outperforming us.

 

3 - I'm going to paste this bit in word for word:

 

Almost as startling are the IMF’s reasons for why Britain is in such a state: one way or another they all come back to neoliberalism. Thatcher loosed finance from its shackles and used our North Sea oil money to pay for swingeing tax cuts. The result is an overfinancialised economy and a government that is £1tn worse off since the banking crash. Norway has similar North Sea wealth and a far smaller population, but also a sovereign wealth fund. Its net worth has soared over the past decade.

The other big reason for the UK’s financial precarity is its privatisation programme, described by the IMF as no less than a “fiscal illusion”. British governments have flogged nearly everything in the cupboard, from airports to the Royal Mail – often at giveaway prices – to friends in the City. Such privatisations, judge the fund, “increase revenues and lower deficits but also reduce the government’s asset holdings”.

 

Specifically for CT:

 

Throughout the austerity decade, ministers and economists have pushed for spending cuts by pointing to the size of the government’s annual overdraft, or budget deficit. Yet there are two sides to a balance sheet, as all accountants know and this IMF work recognises. The same goes for our public realm: if Labour’s John McDonnell gets into No 11 and renationalises the railways, that would cost tens of billions – but it would also leave the country with assets worth tens of billions that provided a regular income. Instead, what this IMF research shows is that the Westminster classes have been asset-stripping Britain for decades – and storing up financial trouble for future generations.

 

4 - Privitisation has given unearned wealth to a privileged few. A study carried out by Greenwich University revealed that if water companies remained public they would be able to operate day to day and invest in long term projects for the future. Instead, having gone private, they have accumulated £51bn of debt, as a result of making payments to shareholders (solely as a result of this) that we will all be paying for, through our bills, for years.

 

5 - Neoliberalism has not only failed to make Britain economically stronger (proving that Thatcher was indeed bad for this country on every conceivable level), it has made us all poorer, and continues to rip us off.

[Christmas Tree 4702]

So much bollocks. Maybe instead of reading guff like this you should go back and read what state the country was in during the 70’s. (You won’t, but you should for balance).

 

The reason a lot of privatisation works is that they are run better and more professionally than a group of MP’s can manage. That’s why so many were run down and heavily subsidised in the 70’s.

 

As soon as McDonnell gets his hands on the railways it will be more staff needed, better pay, better conditions, more middle management and back to subsidy’s. There would be no profit.

[Rayvin 5186]

Do you have anything to put forward about the state of the country in the 70s? I like to think I'll give a balanced hearing to everything to be honest CT, it's why I get called a nazi from time to time.

 

I don't think you can dismiss the IMF and university level research as bollocks though. What about the water company thing? That's not just been made up, it's demonstrably true. As is the economic placement of the UK versus other nations. So those are facts. Is your contention that there are other factors at play?

[Alex 34876]

It's hardly a new idea that Thatcher conned the country by selling the family silver and using the North Sea oil money to cut taxes. It's also demonstrably true. But you know, house prices went up. Which is GREAT (C) for everyone

[Rayvin 5186]

Yes, I'm not saying that there's much new info there apart from the IMF report really - although I do find that water company stat to be almost as hilarious as it is depressing.

[Alex 34876]

And despite that she ran a deficit in most of her years in power. And unemployment was at almost double the levels it was when she left office compared to when she commenced her premiership.

[Rayvin 5186]

9 minutes ago, Alex said:

And despite that she ran a deficit in most of her years in power. And unemployment was at almost double the levels it was when she left office compared to when she commenced her premiership.

 

I've been told that she effectively created an 'underclass' (unpleasant word but perhaps apt on this occasion) with the speed at which she closed down industry, catapulting people skilled at really only one thing into unemployment with no sense of managed decline, or opportunities being provided for people to retrain in other industries. Maybe that's an unfavourable depiction of it though?

Edited October 17, 2018 by Rayvin

[Alex 34876]

Just now, Rayvin said:

 

I've been told that she effectively created an 'underclass' (unpleasant work but perhaps apt on this occasion) with the speed at which she closed down industry, catapulting people skilled at really only one thing into unemployment with no sense of managed decline, or opportunities being provided for people to retrain in other industries. Maybe that's an unfavourable depiction of it though?

No, that's pretty much it. You can argue that the transition to service industries was necessary (although there's plenty evidence to the contrary) but either way it was done with such speed and so little afterthought as to those it impacted on that you can still see it today all over places like the North East.

[Anorthernsoul 1221]

Unbelievable.

 

 

[ewerk 30295]

[Renton 21364]

Labour 5 points behind in the latest polls. Unbelievable considering the job the Tories are doing. I blame Layvin. 

[Alex 34876]

Corbyn back to his (default) invisible man act of late

[Meenzer 15412]

I don't know what you mean. While 650,000 people were marching through London on Saturday in support of a vote on the final deal on the UK's future, Corbyn was... oh, right.

 

 

[Alex 34876]

Like a parody of a parody of himself

[Rayvin 5186]

12 hours ago, Renton said:

Labour 5 points behind in the latest polls. Unbelievable considering the job the Tories are doing. I blame Layvin. 

 

I still don't think it would have gone any better with anyone else in charge tbh. Not from the centrist camp anyway. I know I was done with them, and I'd imagine I wasn't the only one.

[Andrew 4720]

1 hour ago, Rayvin said:

 

I still don't think it would have gone any better with anyone else in charge tbh. Not from the centrist camp anyway. I know I was done with them, and I'd imagine I wasn't the only one.

 

Who else were you voting for in that case?

 

Cause I don't have anyone to vote for anymore, Labours lost me in its current state because its...well, stupid now.

[Rayvin 5186]

13 minutes ago, Andrew said:

 

Who else were you voting for in that case?

 

Cause I don't have anyone to vote for anymore, Labours lost me in its current state because its...well, stupid now.

 

I was done. Fully disillusioned and resigned to apathy.

 

So, where you are now really. I'm much the same except it's more Brexit that has caused it. I still back the majority of Labour's domestic policies.

[NJS 4373]

Has anyone considered the pov that the support has slightly reduced because they went second vote/remainish friendly at conference? 

 

As I've said before, the idea that the rabid leavers have all waken up and "seen sense" is an arrogant and probably false notion - exemplified by the confidence in a second vote being foregone. 

 

 

[Renton 21364]

1 hour ago, NJS said:

Has anyone considered the pov that the support has slightly reduced because they went second vote/remainish friendly at conference? 

 

As I've said before, the idea that the rabid leavers have all waken up and "seen sense" is an arrogant and probably false notion - exemplified by the confidence in a second vote being foregone. 

 

 

 

Then why has Corbyn's personal support waned? He's the only leave leader of the main political parties. He's fucking hopeless man. 

 

As for the likely results of a second referendum, honestly think it would be for remain by a margin, and massively so amongst Labour support. Changing demographics suit remain, and I think most previous non voters would just want this to end, which it won't with another leave vote. Still not my preferred option though. 

[ewerk 30295]

2 hours ago, NJS said:

Has anyone considered the pov that the support has slightly reduced because they went second vote/remainish friendly at conference? 

 

As I've said before, the idea that the rabid leavers have all waken up and "seen sense" is an arrogant and probably false notion - exemplified by the confidence in a second vote being foregone. 

 

 

1.4 million Labour voters have switched from Leave to Remain. That surely should have seen a bump in his figures as Labour move to a more Remain friendly position.

[NJS 4373]

Fair comment and I do think a second vote would "win" - I just don't think it's as cut and dried as the proponents think. 

 

I do think most leavers are at best misled and at worst racist and ignorant - unfortunately constantly pointing that out is just entrenching their position. 

 

I just don't think Labour and more significantly Corbyn embracing a softer than soft deal is the panacea some think. 

 

(that was aimed at Renton first reply) 

Edited October 23, 2018 by NJS

[ewerk 30295]

I'm beginning to think that Remain would win fairly comfortably second time around. 2016 saw a near maximum turnout of leave voters, they were motivated to make their voices heard. This time we'd see the same among the casual remainer who didn't bother voting last time out. Add to that the old racists who have died and those who have changed their minds and it all points to a remain victory.

N.B. this prediction is based on absolutely nothing concrete.