adios 717 Posted May 1, 2016 Share Posted May 1, 2016 He obviously has a strong base but he's benefiting from every 'anyone but Hilary' vote. In a two horse race I'd say she has an impressive lead. Why would you dismiss the reasons for the ABH vote? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Renton 18069 Posted May 1, 2016 Share Posted May 1, 2016 (edited) Answering for myself here rather than ewerk, obviously. I'd say ABH is often personal, rather than ideological. Edited May 1, 2016 by Renton Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
adios 717 Posted May 1, 2016 Share Posted May 1, 2016 I follow American politics very closely, it's mostly about Wall Street and Corporatism. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Renton 18069 Posted May 1, 2016 Share Posted May 1, 2016 I was 12. I guess your implication is that I didn't see where Labour placed itself prior to 1997? A fair enough argument but I witnessed in my adult life the shift to the right. Backing austerity despite solid economic arguments not to was what made me believe ideology and winning elections was more important than doing what was best for people. At least in the eyes of old new Labour. What a party says in opposition or fearing imminent opposition isn't the same as what it does in power. No way were Labour going to convince the population that Keynesian economics was the answer, even if it was. But without power, you can't change anything. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rayvin 4972 Posted May 1, 2016 Share Posted May 1, 2016 So you think we should vote them in and hope they do what we want rather than what they said? That doesn't make sense. I would argue it's not even fair tbh. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kid Dynamite 6097 Posted May 1, 2016 Share Posted May 1, 2016 I think what Renton is trying to say is 'I'm right, your wrong, deal with it' Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Renton 18069 Posted May 1, 2016 Share Posted May 1, 2016 (edited) So you think we should vote them in and hope they do what we want rather than what they said? That doesn't make sense. I would argue it's not even fair tbh.Labour didn't advocate Keynesian manifesto because they thought it was a loser for votes, and they wouldn't get in power. However I doubt the public cut backs would have been anywhere as savage under them. That was why I asked the 97 question. You really haven't seen the full malevolence of a tory majority yet, we've had less than a year so far. You'll see it soon enough and you and people like you have guaranteed it for at least a decade yet. Edited May 1, 2016 by Renton Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rayvin 4972 Posted May 1, 2016 Share Posted May 1, 2016 (edited) We didn't guarantee it for the first five years though did we? That was old new Labour. Who failed in the last election. Caveat on reflection - you may turn out to be right about this in the end. You've more life experience than I do - be a depressing state of affairs though. Best we can hope for being minor modifications to the status quo rather than any meaningful change. Edited May 1, 2016 by Rayvin Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PaddockLad 14926 Posted May 1, 2016 Share Posted May 1, 2016 (edited) Burnham would have stood a good chance of being pm in 2020. The Tories are in complete disarray at the moment in case you hadn't noticed, Miliband would beat them in an election today. Corbyn wouldn't. This is the bit where you claim Burnham is as bad as Cameron. I wholly disagree. Burnham is a decent bloke and a good politician but only slightly more electable as PM to middle Britain as Milliband was, i.e. "Not very much". The idea that Milliband or Burnham would be beating Cameron up at the dispatch box in mid 2016 and taking advantage of the mess the Tories are in isn't a runner for me either when it would be the easiest thing in the world for any Tory leader to turn round and say "your manifesto in 2015 was virtually identical to ours ya knob" i.e. Austerity & stay in Europe. If it wasn't a vote grabber for Milliand who's going have a change of heart 12 months later with "a fuckin scouser" (you can just hear the Sun readers) in charge? In a way all this is academic until the country's fate is known after the referendum. If we're out, Boris is PM, if it's in, it's Gideon. I can't see anyone from the Labour ranks beating either of them as things stand tbh.The thing that may change the game is the inevitable breakaway of Scotland in the event of a vote for leaving. It was interesting how the right wing media were turning on Cameron when it looked like there was going to be a "Yes" vote; "the PM who lost Scotland " etc etc....that could cook the Tories goose iyam but it would probably lead to another coalition unless someone emerges who is acceptable to the right wing press. Thing is the ones with a bit of charisma or an attractive backstory (Creasy,Jarvis?) aren't pushing themselves forward and are pretty inexperienced in any case. It's a shite state of affairs, but one that a year or so of Corbyn and his gang can't really influence until after June. If there's an out vote then that may be a real starting point, a clear difference between the parties. Edited May 1, 2016 by PaddockLad Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Christmas Tree 4005 Posted May 1, 2016 Author Share Posted May 1, 2016 All this talk of Tory turmoil btw, it will be over once the EU is out of the way. Sure the sceptics will be there but they will have to pipe down. Can't ever see Gideon getting the job and if I was putting money anywhere today, it would be on May. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PaddockLad 14926 Posted May 1, 2016 Share Posted May 1, 2016 All this talk of Tory turmoil btw, it will be over once the EU is out of the way. Sure the sceptics will be there but they will have to pipe down. Can't ever see Gideon getting the job and if I was putting money anywhere today, it would be on May. You seem to be suggesting a vote for staying in is likely?... If that's the case, they won't pipe down, it just won't be reported as much by the tame Tory press. The whole thing has come about mostly due to the rise of UKIP and the huge amount of Tory euro sceptic backbenchers threatening to join Farage. Cameron filled his nappy accordingly and placated them with this referendum. If there's a actual split in Labour about direction then I think they'll be one over Europe with the Tories. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Christmas Tree 4005 Posted May 2, 2016 Author Share Posted May 2, 2016 You seem to be suggesting a vote for staying in is likely?... If that's the case, they won't pipe down, it just won't be reported as much by the tame Tory press. The whole thing has come about mostly due to the rise of UKIP and the huge amount of Tory euro sceptic backbenchers threatening to join Farage. Cameron filled his nappy accordingly and placated them with this referendum. If there's a actual split in Labour about direction then I think they'll be one over Europe with the Tories. Labours in civil war tearing itself apart. The Tories is just the usual eu stuff, but if we vote in, that's it. Boris and Grove will fall in line and the back bench old euro sceptics will have had their day. You hardly hear about Farage or any Ukippers these days and they will diminish even further following an in vote. I also think we'll see a nice economic boost following an in and then in the next 18 months oil will recover as well. Labour will never win from the left. There best bet would be to ditch Corbyn and get the SAS guy in, but a good showing in the council elections will scupper those plans. I just can't see how labour can bridge the divide between the membership and parliamentary party. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PaddockLad 14926 Posted May 2, 2016 Share Posted May 2, 2016 Labours in civil war tearing itself apart. Well, that's not exactly news old son, that's the subject Rents has brought up The Tories is just the usual eu stuff, but if we vote in, that's it. Boris and Gove will fall in line and the back bench old euro sceptics will have had their day. If it's a close "in" vote, they're more likely to get exceedingly uppity, see the Scots Nats post referendum bullshit for details You hardly hear about Farage or any Ukippers these days and they will diminish even further following an in vote. He's been temporarily gagged by the Tory press because they want to present Boris and Gove as the "acceptable" face of the "out" campaign. But it's plain to anyone with a titter of wit that with 7million voting ukip at the last election something had to be done to placate all the anti euro backbenchers. You can be sure that regardless of the referendum result, with the scenes of all the refugees streaming into Europe beamed nightly into our homes, leaving the EU is the biggest political issue of our times and it's frankly ridiculous to suggest any of this drive for an exit will just go away, especially if the "in" vote wins narrowly. I also think we'll see a nice economic boost following an in and then in the next 18 months oil will recover as well. Based on what??! What result in the referendum is going to cause that? unless your just talking about normal capitalism boom/bust bullshit then yeah, but that's not exactly putting your head above the parapet. Labour will never win from the left. There best bet would be to ditch Corbyn and get the SAS guy in, but a good showing in the council elections will scupper those plans. Agree Labour will never win with Corbyn et al, but they were annihilated from the centre ground too last May. I just can't see how labour can bridge the divide between the membership and parliamentary party. Neither can I. Unless someone with a bit of charisma and leadership appears soon they're fucked for a decade at least. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Anorthernsoul 1221 Posted May 2, 2016 Share Posted May 2, 2016 http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/europe/ttip-leak-could-spell-the-end-of-controversial-trade-deal-say-campaigners-a7009896.html Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ewerk 26853 Posted May 5, 2016 Share Posted May 5, 2016 http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/jeremy-hunt-told-off-parliament-fiddling-phone-bercow-a7013156.html Behaving like spoiled school children and rightly being treated as such. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Fish 9247 Posted May 5, 2016 Share Posted May 5, 2016 Christ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Christmas Tree 4005 Posted May 5, 2016 Author Share Posted May 5, 2016 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ewerk 26853 Posted May 5, 2016 Share Posted May 5, 2016 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kevin Carr's Gloves 3284 Posted May 5, 2016 Share Posted May 5, 2016 (edited) Gorgeous George is indeed the best chancellor in our lifetime https://uk.finance.yahoo.com/news/britain-horribly-unprepared-coming-recession-060000586.html Edited May 5, 2016 by Kevin Carr's Gloves Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Happy Face 29 Posted May 5, 2016 Share Posted May 5, 2016 Mayor Vs Committee No idea of the pros and cons of either, but thinking it'll cost to change to a committee so best left alone. Anyone want to argue against having a mayor and convince me to vote for change? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Christmas Tree 4005 Posted May 5, 2016 Author Share Posted May 5, 2016 Gorgeous George is indeed the best chancellor in our lifetime https://uk.finance.yahoo.com/news/britain-horribly-unprepared-coming-recession-060000586.html One of the stupidest articles I've ever read. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Christmas Tree 4005 Posted May 5, 2016 Author Share Posted May 5, 2016 Mayor Vs Committee No idea of the pros and cons of either, but thinking it'll cost to change to a committee so best left alone. Anyone want to argue against having a mayor and convince me to vote for change? Committee???? What are you on about. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Happy Face 29 Posted May 5, 2016 Share Posted May 5, 2016 Committee???? What are you on about. There's a referendum in North Tyneside - voters are being asked whether the council should continue to be run by an elected mayor or if there should be an alternative committee system instead http://www.chroniclelive.co.uk/news/north-east-news/everything-you-need-know-north-11275959 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Christmas Tree 4005 Posted May 5, 2016 Author Share Posted May 5, 2016 There's a referendum in North Tyneside - voters are being asked whether the council should continue to be run by an elected mayor or if there should be an alternative committee system instead http://www.chroniclelive.co.uk/news/north-east-news/everything-you-need-know-north-11275959 Didn't know you had a mayor. Someone who is electable is surely better than a committee that I'm guessing would mainly be labour only? As it happens, the whole of the North East is currently spending a lot of money forming plans to have a proper Mayor. I think the vote (if passed by parliament, is about 18 months away). *taxi story relayed by a an IT chap with an Aston Martin , who is getting paid mega bucks to lay the foundations for how it will work. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Happy Face 29 Posted May 5, 2016 Share Posted May 5, 2016 Didn't know you had a mayor. Someone who is electable is surely better than a committee that I'm guessing would mainly be labour only? As it happens, the whole of the North East is currently spending a lot of money forming plans to have a proper Mayor. I think the vote (if passed by parliament, is about 18 months away). *taxi story relayed by a an IT chap with an Aston Martin , who is getting paid mega bucks to lay the foundations for how it will work. I think I prefer what would usually be a majority labour group of councillors holding the purse strings than potentially a single tory mayor. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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