ewerk 26433 Posted January 9, 2018 Share Posted January 9, 2018 So weak she can't even get into her own cabinet photo op. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rayvin 4964 Posted January 9, 2018 Share Posted January 9, 2018 Did he say it was technically impossible or was he just articulating that logically, the vote to leave makes no sense whatsoever on the basis of continuing SM access? Which is something I recall many of us agreeing on in the immediate aftermath of the referendum. I'm going to agree that Corbyn just isn't 'visible' enough to lead the party. He always seems to be making statements on government decisions and criticising their actions, but seems to be incapable of making a big enough splash when he does so. As such, we get situations like this where Alex thinks he doesn't say anything to criticise them at all and only speaks to back Brexit. I've only ever backed Corbyn because I see him as a necessary vehicle for change, I've no strong attachment to the guy beyond that believe it or not. if they replace him with someone who keeps the policies and general thrust of what he was aiming for, but is more visible, then great. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Renton 17817 Posted January 9, 2018 Share Posted January 9, 2018 1 minute ago, Rayvin said: Did he say it was technically impossible or was he just articulating that logically, the vote to leave makes no sense whatsoever on the basis of continuing SM access? Which is something I recall many of us agreeing on in the immediate aftermath of the referendum. I'm going to agree that Corbyn just isn't 'visible' enough to lead the party. He always seems to be making statements on government decisions and criticising their actions, but seems to be incapable of making a big enough splash when he does so. As such, we get situations like this where Alex thinks he doesn't say anything to criticise them at all and only speaks to back Brexit. I've only ever backed Corbyn because I see him as a necessary vehicle for change, I've no strong attachment to the guy beyond that believe it or not. if they replace him with someone who keeps the policies and general thrust of what he was aiming for, but is more visible, then great. Really? I don't recall this. Leaving the SM is an existential threat to this country imo. Nothing else really matters until this crisis is sorted. But Corbyn supports it ffs. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ewerk 26433 Posted January 9, 2018 Share Posted January 9, 2018 14 minutes ago, Rayvin said: Did he say it was technically impossible or was he just articulating that logically, the vote to leave makes no sense whatsoever on the basis of continuing SM access? Which is something I recall many of us agreeing on in the immediate aftermath of the referendum. "Single market membership requires us to be members of the EU" is what he is quoted as saying. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rayvin 4964 Posted January 9, 2018 Share Posted January 9, 2018 I don't know what he meant then. But given that everyone already knows that we can leave the EU and still be in the SM, it would be a pretty shit lie. Can't imagine he's ignorant to the whole thing either but honestly, I didn't weigh in here to get into a protracted argument about Corbyn. As I've agreed before, he's not a good leader. He's also not exactly great at speaking with political skill. He does however, make statements to the press criticising government policy. That these statements aren't hugely visible is more to do with the press than him, since they control what becomes visible. He also has no real options for a Remain stance concerning Brexit, unless someone can explain to me how he does this without fundamentally abandoning the working classes. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ewerk 26433 Posted January 9, 2018 Share Posted January 9, 2018 19 minutes ago, Rayvin said: He also has no real options for a Remain stance concerning Brexit, unless someone can explain to me how he does this without fundamentally abandoning the working classes. 2/3 of Labour voters have said they'll be pissed off and 1/4 saying they'll consider voting for another party if Labour backs Brexit. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rayvin 4964 Posted January 9, 2018 Share Posted January 9, 2018 Yep, that more or less maps to the number that voted Remain, so that makes sense. Would be interested to know the demographics on that though. And the stance of the 1/3 who presumably do back Brexit. It'd be strange to think that Corbyn on the one hand is an incredibly weak leader, and on the other hand, is capable of strong arming his whole party into a pro-Brexit stance against all statistical evidence to the contrary, presumably through sheer force of will. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Renton 17817 Posted January 9, 2018 Share Posted January 9, 2018 17 minutes ago, Rayvin said: Yep, that more or less maps to the number that voted Remain, so that makes sense. Would be interested to know the demographics on that though. And the stance of the 1/3 who presumably do back Brexit. It'd be strange to think that Corbyn on the one hand is an incredibly weak leader, and on the other hand, is capable of strong arming his whole party into a pro-Brexit stance against all statistical evidence to the contrary, presumably through sheer force of will. He's done it through a well publicised coup. It's funny reading you defend him. Accept it, the guy is a committed eurosceptic as much as Farage. His motivation is entirely different, but I fear the result will be the same. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rayvin 4964 Posted January 9, 2018 Share Posted January 9, 2018 (edited) I'm not defending him, I'm just not seeing a strategic alternative with respect of Brexit. Although tbf to ewerk, what he has posted at least potentially looks like it could form the bones of one, and is more than anyone has given me to date. It's not the full picture though, just the picture from one side. And a quick google didn't allow me to find the source of the data, so I can't look into it myself. Labour can't win without that 25% who will consider going elsewhere, but equally they can't win without the... 15%? 20%? from the Brexit side who will make the same call but from the other side. And that's assuming we don't even consider the fact that he still needs to win people over in order to actually get into power. Rock and a hard place. Also don't think it was a coup. Think the membership and people generally were just desperate for change. Corbyn didn't plan to be where he is. Edited January 9, 2018 by Rayvin Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ewerk 26433 Posted January 9, 2018 Share Posted January 9, 2018 Who do the Brexiteer Labour voters go to? UKIP is all but dead. All they can do is stay home on polling day. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rayvin 4964 Posted January 9, 2018 Share Posted January 9, 2018 I suspect if Labour went Remain, UKIP would rally. But other than that I would argue the Tories tbh. In the last election they got 47% of C2s. 7% more than Labour. And they got 41% of DEs (Labour got 44%). So it's not exactly unheard of for this demographic to go blue. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Renton 17817 Posted January 9, 2018 Share Posted January 9, 2018 6 minutes ago, Rayvin said: I'm not defending him, I'm just not seeing a strategic alternative with respect of Brexit. Although tbf to ewerk, what he has posted at least potentially looks like it could form the bones of one, and is more than anyone has given me to date. It's not the full picture though, just the picture from one side. And a quick google didn't allow me to find the source of the data, so I can't look into it myself. Labour can't win without that 25% who will consider going elsewhere, but equally they can't win without the... 15%? 20%? from the Brexit side who will make the same call but from the other side. And that's assuming we don't even consider the fact that he still needs to win people over in order to actually get into power. Rock and a hard place. Also don't think it was a coup. Think the membership and people generally were just desperate for change. Corbyn didn't plan to be where he is. Well how about the Labour party is brave, and to use your terms, put forward a positive and achievable narrative? Pretty much the opposite of what Corbyn is doing and in fact is not possible with him as leader. Let's dispel some Corbyn myths first: We can leave the EU and stay in the SM. We can stay in the EU and nationalise our industries. We can control immigration if we really want to. Leaving the SM and CU is a circle which can't be squared with peace in NI. Get rid of this useless pensioner now before it's too late, and get rid of useless politicians like McDonnell and Abbot while we're at it. You might not have noticed, but it's a fact most people don't support hard Brexit and the Tory party is on it's knees. Ffs, time to act, now. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ewerk 26433 Posted January 9, 2018 Share Posted January 9, 2018 10 minutes ago, Rayvin said: I suspect if Labour went Remain, UKIP would rally. But other than that I would argue the Tories tbh. In the last election they got 47% of C2s. 7% more than Labour. And they got 41% of DEs (Labour got 44%). So it's not exactly unheard of for this demographic to go blue. UKIP are devoid of leadership and in the last 12 months have received less than a quarter of the donations they received in the previous 12 months. Not to mention they've lost an awful lot of EU funding. Currently they'd only be able to contest a handful of seats. Labour may lose some voters to the Tories but also they may gain some in the opposite direction. Though this is much more likely to happen with a non-Corbyn leadership. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rayvin 4964 Posted January 9, 2018 Share Posted January 9, 2018 I guess then we come back to the issue for me again - they need a platform about as left wing as the one they have now or we're doomed to keep seeing people's lives turn to shit. Well, unless the centre goes radical anyway. Labour would only gain in the opposite direction once. Alienating their base will last more than just one GE - as I said in my first post today. 17 minutes ago, Renton said: Well how about the Labour party is brave, and to use your terms, put forward a positive and achievable narrative? Pretty much the opposite of what Corbyn is doing and in fact is not possible with him as leader. Let's dispel some Corbyn myths first: We can leave the EU and stay in the SM. We can stay in the EU and nationalise our industries. We can control immigration if we really want to. Leaving the SM and CU is a circle which can't be squared with peace in NI. Get rid of this useless pensioner now before it's too late, and get rid of useless politicians like McDonnell and Abbot while we're at it. You might not have noticed, but it's a fact most people don't support hard Brexit and the Tory party is on it's knees. Ffs, time to act, now. It's not going to happen. Corbyn needs to actually fail at something tangible to be ousted. I still think it all hinges on Brexit and the Tories fucking up. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ewerk 26433 Posted January 10, 2018 Share Posted January 10, 2018 Interesting article on nationalising the railways. http://www.politics.co.uk/comment-analysis/2018/01/10/welfare-for-the-rich-the-truth-about-rail-nationalisation Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Anorthernsoul 1221 Posted January 19, 2018 Share Posted January 19, 2018 Boris Johnson calls for a bridge over the channel Is he for real? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kid Dynamite 5936 Posted January 19, 2018 Share Posted January 19, 2018 Aye, it will be great fun sitting in a 6 hour traffic jam to get through passport control Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ewerk 26433 Posted January 23, 2018 Share Posted January 23, 2018 Now Boris is demanding an extra £100m a week for the NHS. And all because he's genuinely concerned about a well funded national health service free and the point of delivery. No ulterior motives here at all. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dr Gloom 19834 Posted January 23, 2018 Share Posted January 23, 2018 It’s actually a clever politcal play. The brexiteer saviour of the nhs is ready to swoop in as Tory leader (just as soon as May has overseen the exit) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ewerk 26433 Posted January 23, 2018 Share Posted January 23, 2018 Desperate to be sacked. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alex 30442 Posted January 23, 2018 Share Posted January 23, 2018 33 minutes ago, ewerk said: Now Boris is demanding an extra £100m a week for the NHS. And all because he's genuinely concerned about a well funded national health service free and the point of delivery. No ulterior motives here at all. Well within his Foreign Office remit. The gargantuan popinjay Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Christmas Tree 3997 Posted January 23, 2018 Author Share Posted January 23, 2018 It’s a piss poor government with a weak leader and no money and few ideas. Waiting in the wings rings are the mad snake oil salesmen. I don’t think the men in grey suits are going to allow this drift to continue and I would surmise that Boris has been given the green light to go for it. I’m not a big Boris fan but I would like to see Michael Gove in as chancellor. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alex 30442 Posted January 23, 2018 Share Posted January 23, 2018 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ewerk 26433 Posted January 23, 2018 Share Posted January 23, 2018 44 minutes ago, Christmas Tree said: I’m not a big Boris fan but I would like to see Michael Gove in as chancellor. Go on then, I'll bite. Why? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alex 30442 Posted January 23, 2018 Share Posted January 23, 2018 Because he's tired of experts Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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